Our Take on Harvard Business Review’s “4 Myths About In-Person Work, Dispelled”
The big question many workplaces are still facing is how to work: in-person, hybrid, or remote. No matter your workplace, many wonder if in-person meetings or retreats should be held more often to build culture and engagement. Harvard Business Review recently came out with an article on “4 Myths About In-Person Work, Dispelled.” Join Rob and Traci as they discuss these myths and some things you as a business leader need to keep in mind when planning an in-person event for your team.
This episode is brought to you by the Bureau of Digital. Learn more at bureauofdigital.com.
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Rob:
A few weeks ago, I was going through my Twitter feed, and as I do, I save off a whole bunch of articles that I'd like to read with catchy titles and all that stuff. One of my favorite places to read articles is the Harvard Business Review. And in that, they had an article on October 5th that was titled the 4 Myths About In-Person Work, Dispelled. I was like, "Ooh, this sounds like something I should read. What are these myths and all that stuff like that?" I got to reading it and I was like, "Oh, not only is this an article that I need to send to my buddy Traci, but we need to talk about it here on Overly Human." So here we go.
How's it going, Traci?
Traci:
It's going good. I knew when you sent it to me exactly why you sent it to me. You knew that we'd have an interesting conversation about this. I'm ready to jump in.
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human Podcast, where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it's personal too.
Rob:
All right, let's do it. Let's walk through each of their myths. There's only four of them, so we can walk through them and then walk through some of their wrap-ups. But really this is framed as in response to the world has changed. We've talked about this at length in the past, and we won't go through all this again, but a whole bunch of in-person businesses in March of 2020 suddenly found themselves in a remote world.
The overall view on this article that I had was, wow, this does a really interesting job of dividing up almost the managers/leaders who want their people in the office and workers who don't really see the need anymore and what are these myths? That's kind of how it's framed up.
Traci:
Yes.
Rob:
Their first myth is in-person learning is more effective, and they basically say it's not and only provide a couple sentences about why it's not.
Traci:
That was I think one of their shortest ones about in-person learning. I mean, obviously, Navigate The Journey is a company that provides learning for companies. We come in and the main reason that we're brought in—is at least on one side of our business for team health—is to provide learning opportunities for leaders to grow and teams to become more cohesive. We do it both ways. We do it virtually and we do it in person. We get this question all the time, which one's more effective?
I feel that they both can be effective, but there is a difference to in-person learning as far as what we provide, so the types of activities we do, the way that we structure teams to do breakouts, and some of the fun, more interactive games that we play that really bond teams together. I think really what this boils down to—and it's a man and a woman working together on this article—they hint at this is, at the well-designed learning versus not well-designed learning.
All things equal, if we're putting together a very high impact, a proven process, a deep and effective learning, then I think if all things were equal, you're probably going to get more traction with an in-person learning than a virtual learning. But I would say it's pretty close. There's not a wide gap there. It's just you're going to have a different experience.
I think if you're trying to decide between the two, how we help teams decide and leaders decide is, what's your pain point?
Rob:
Say more about that, the pain point.
Traci:
If you're just trying to provide learning for learning, say you want leaders to interact with your clients in a more effective way, or you're trying to teach them how to work on processes and communication and those types of things, a virtual learning could be perfectly fine for that. If you are having trust issues on a team, people don't trust each other, they are going behind each other's back, there's rivalry, competition, I would say every day of the week and twice on Sunday, your learning should be in person, because we grow trust by getting to know each other. We get to know each other in a deep and personal way when we're looking in each other's eyes face-to-face, bodies in the same room, breathing the same air.
I hate to say it is with every argument, it all depends, but it does all depend. There are going to be situations where I would argue back on this and say, "In-person's going to be more powerful depending on your pain point. What issue are you trying to solve for? And that will help me help you determine whether you can pull that off virtually or whether you need to invest and bring your team together."
Rob:
Yeah, I like that “it depends” answer. One of the things that you just said was in this article about well-designed virtual learning. I think that the question I would immediately ask is, if it's not well-designed, why are you doing it anyway?
Traci:
Exactly. But you know what? I think that's a great point that you bring up because I feel like when they're surveying in this type of article and they're going out there and researchers are surveying, that's part of the problem. They're not taking out the ineffective ill-designed, just throwing it against the wall to see if it sticks, or checking off the box—which you and I both know that so many leaders are like, "Oh, yeah, okay. Well, I'll just do lunch and learns on Friday. It'll just be something I found on YouTube." It's like, okay, well, it's no wonder your people aren't engaged. You're not trying. You're not really leaning into it. Your point is right.
Rob:
This brings up the whole point for me about having to design your learning for the medium that it's going to be presented in. I've seen a lot of great workshops in person where the same thing is done virtually and it sucks, because the interactive model, the way they're trying to facilitate those things doesn't translate. I've seen some really, really good virtual stuff that's done really intentionally that works well for that medium. I know in my workshops, I've had to rethink several of the exercises that I've done over the last couple years to be like, no, we need to change this up, or, ooh, now that I have true private spaces, I can do something even a little bit different.
I think that's part of that intentional design is knowing how it's going to be delivered and delivered well. If you have a workshop or doing some learning that they just picked up what they did in person and put it virtually, it's not going to be very good most of the time. It has to be something different.
Traci:
Right. We're at a stage now where if you don't understand how to... We'll just take Zoom as one platform for an example. If you haven't figured out as a leader or a facilitator how to use that platform to the best of your ability, whether it's polls, whether it's breakout rooms, there are so many things now and so many different softwares and different things that you can use to make your learning really interactive and engaging. But you have to do your homework and you have to be intentional and you have to understand.
When we're talking well-designed, there's so many different, from the content to the way it's executed, to how you engage, are all the things you have to be thinking about when you're putting together any learning, whether it's in person, but you have to double down on virtual, I feel.
Rob:
I think there's a lot of cool tools out there too, right? Zoom is one of them obviously, but Miro boards are some of the interactive software that we get that we can actually have a group of people interacting with virtual things that I think is even a little bit better than it would be in person.
Traci:
It's cool. I mean, we use Miro in person and virtually. But you're right, because I feel like if people are engaged, it's just like everybody has the attention span of a gnat nowadays, it's really because it's been honed down by how we're inundated with all of these things. Whether you're in person or virtual, you're fighting for people's attention. As facilitators, we're always saying that. You know this, because you've spoken on so many stages. You know when you lose the crowd, you know when you've lost the audience, and you got to bring them back.
It's the same thing when you're facilitating this type of learning, and you can sense it virtually as well. You have to have your finger on the pulse of, are you connecting? Are they engaged? And that's your job is to make sure that's happening.
Rob:
Their second myth is in-person events help create or strengthen culture. They go through and they basically say that you can do it either way. This works as well virtually.
Traci:
Well, I think what they do well in this myth number two explanation is that they define culture. They define culture the same way I think we've defined it on the show many times, which is it's how we work together, how we're expected to behave with one another, the goals we collectively pursue, the way we respond to challenges and setbacks. And that culture is something we experience all day, every day. Culture is built off of this, how we're acting and interacting.
What's interesting, and I don't know, I want to hear what you thought, is they put in-person events as the myth help create and then they put in parentheses or strengthen culture. What did you think about that, because there's a big difference between creating and strengthening?
Rob:
There is. It's so hard to connect where we are right now in the space this article was written in from the experience that we're all having, right? We talked about this a couple weeks ago. We did our first in-person retreat since 2019. It was amazing, and it was amazing because we did learn things together. I absolutely believe that it helped strengthen and reinforced our culture.
Did it create culture? No. Culture is created and have to be maintained and has to be defined well what your values and mission and vision are for where you're going. But do I believe that it reinforced those things and strengthened it? Absolutely. You could feel it. I think that not only could you feel it in the room, that we have data, the pulse surveys that we do, the two highest weeks of the year were our spirit week and our week that we did our retreat as far as scores that we constantly run. That's a small sample size. I know that. That's just our company, but there is things that we'll rely on and look back to for years to come from that in-person time together.
Traci:
I think if they had taken out the or strengthen and just said the myth was in-person events help create culture, I would be in agreement with that. I don't think they create it, but strengthen it. I completely agree with you.
Again, this goes back to trust. If the most important foundation to your cohesive team is trust and trust is formed by getting to know each other on a personal level, then of course, in-person events are going to help strengthen that. Of course, they're going to help build. Our culture, we need to know how we work together and interact and behave with one another online and in person.
I feel like there are I'm sure companies out there that have been created obviously in the last three years and there are teams out there that have never met each other in person and have probably been spending a couple of years together. And there are teams that may not be able to afford bringing people together. I just want to honor that and know that's there and know that it exists.
But what we're talking about here is if this is truth, if we're deciding between together or not together and we have that option as a company or as a company, we've always been remote and we're deciding, "Should we budget for this in 2023? Should we even care," I think the danger is to read this and think, "See? We don't really need to put budget against that. It's not going to help our culture. If culture is the most important thing, then." I think we just have to be careful about that because this is very pivotal time in a lot of company's budgeting process.
Here, they talk about how people have this fond memories of attending social and community events, and that the experience was fun and rewarding, but they want it also to be impactful. I think, again, that probably goes back to what you and I were talking about as far as intentionality. Are we getting together and thinking about culture and pushing ourselves? Is this an event that could create culture? Are we providing for that? Or are we just saying, "Hey, let's just get together and have a happy hour and do dinner together?" I mean, there's power in that just getting to know each other and being relaxed. But as leaders behind the scenes, are we making sure that we are crafting something that will bring people together in the right way?
Rob:
Yeah, absolutely. The whole thing about having that hallway track, that in between learning, in between dinners where people are spending time together, that's as much of your culture in your company as anything else is, right? Your values and the things you share and the things that you put your time into, and just that socialization is as much culture building, I think as, let's review our core values and talk about how we operationalize them. That can be a way that you operationalize those values is spending time together.
Traci:
Exactly. You put them to the test and you see who's being the jerk and who's being the unifier and who's galvanizing people and who's making you laugh and who's laughing and who's off in the corner not laughing. You get to assess what's happening with people, where are they and how should I be caring for them? What do they need? And that's hard to glean from a Zoom call when I'm looking at a screen.
But as a leader, if we're thinking about caring for our people, that is one of the best opportunities I ever had. When we'd bring the company together, usually in a lovely place, but I would just always try to be the great observer. What's going on? How are they interacting? Who looks like they're having trouble? Who do I need to come up with alongside? Where can I have them sit? And also, who are the people they need to meet that could be a mentor for them? Make sure that they sit together.
I mean, I was always thinking about those things because you're trying to cultivate not just a work environment, but an experience for the people that are working for you. How do we gain experience? How do we grow? Can we walk away from this event and say, "Not only was that enjoyable, not only did I get to meet people, but I grew a little too." That's pretty amazing.
Rob:
Hey, Traci, what is your favorite thing about the Bureau?
Traci:
Community. I just love meeting people and then learning from each other. How about you?
Rob:
Yeah, it's very much meeting people. Some of the relationships that I have, including you and I meeting there, has been a huge benefit to my company and my career, and just my own personal well-being. That's a lot of credit to give to a sponsor. But in this case, it's actually true. If you haven't heard of the bureau, go check them out on bureauofdigital.com. They just released their 2023 event calendar with all their in-person events and over 50 free online events for members. Memberships are going up, so don't wait. Visit bureauofdigital.com.
Rob:
All right, myth number three, people need a break from their screens.
Traci:
Wait a second, is that a myth or is that a... What are they saying? Because I need a break from my screen.
Rob:
I don't think that this is a myth.
Traci:
Don't say that an in-person event is going to give them a break from the screen. Instead, just let them take their own time away. Is that what you got out of reading that little section?
Rob:
Yeah, exactly. It's really about how do you encourage work-life balance. This should not be the break for them. There's lots of ways to get a break. That felt like that can be true, the way they framed it, but I think that people do need breaks from their screens a little bit too. Both can be true. I mean, I don't think it's a fix, all right. This isn't the fix for people needing a break.
Traci:
That's true. I mean, think the one thing I'll agree with them on because being a part of a very big company for a very long time, one of the things that big corporate companies love to do is to take you offsite to a beautiful location and then put you in a ballroom for three days. That is absolutely true. I think that if companies don't get better at that, if they don't break it up where it's like morning session or outdoor breakout session by the pool or nobody dress formally, this is casual, we're in Miami, wear flip-flops, that type of thing, which even me saying it just kind of makes me laugh out loud because I know that there's so many corporate companies, and my past one included, that would be like, "What?" But I think that's what they're trying to get at here is a break from your screen doesn't mean you're trapped in a room all day.
Again, this goes back to intentionality. If people are feeling burned out and overworked, how do we solve for that intentionally? If we bring them together, how do we mix it up that we are getting stuff done, because when you're together, you don't want to waste that time. How can we design something where we're being strategic, we're getting things done, we're making sure it's just not another long, boring meeting, but it's exciting and people have a voice and they're speaking in and they're learning?
But then there's also opportunity where you're hanging out, you're getting to relax a little bit. Can we maybe budget for some things that really refuel them and then give them a choice if they really want to do that or not do that. Give them a selection of things. There's a lot of creative things you can do. I know it's scary because you sometimes need budget for that, but sometimes you don't. I mean, going on a walking tour of a city, usually that doesn't cost a lot, but people are walking and they're outside and they're somewhere warm.
So there's lots of things that we can do. But I will agree with... Well, first, let's say they do need a break from their screens, but what kind of break are you giving them.
Rob:
I think this goes back to the medium part of it, recognizing what mediums work best for what kinds of things. This was a big thing when we were planning our retreat is I said to the team that was doing the planning and I'm like, "Well, Zoom is really good at one-way communication. It's really good for the whole team to watch me communicate things and talk at them." I said, "But when we get a chance to all be in the same room, we have an opportunity to talk to each other and have two-way communication, have interaction with each other." I said, "That's what we should lean into."
I've been to those big corporate things that you're talking about over the years and all that, and we've even had a couple when it was, “Hey, we need to communicate some things, let’s do it with people in the room.” Why do we want to spend the time and the budget now to put everybody in a conference room when there's a medium that we have available to us every day to do that really well? Zoom is really good at me talking to my team.
But if we're all in the same room, I have the opportunity to all put us on level playing field and do some activities and things like that where I'm not the one holding the room. It's that intentional design. How do I take advantage of the uniqueness of this space to do something I can't do in the other space that's available to us always?
Traci:
Yep, exactly.
Rob:
Myth four, networking and connection can only be done in person. Now, this is one that, yes, I agree. I agree with the way they phrased it. The word only, in my opinion, is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for this myth.
Traci:
Exactly. Yep.
Rob:
I think I will do better if we talk about this, because I think we both agree that networking and connection can be done in any medium.
Traci:
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you have clients probably that you have not met in person.
Rob:
I think it's more interesting to say is networking and connection can best be done in person or should be done. There's a way to phrase this I think that's a little bit more interesting than ‘only’ because ‘only’ kind of pigeonholes this a little bit.
Traci:
I think, again, this was an interesting one because I had to sit back and think about my own experience. I've had two totally different experiences. I had one very long, couple decades-long, career in corporate America. Not one thing was remote. This was all in person in the office, nine to five—well, roughly nine to five—Monday through Friday. Events, dinners, everything in person. Now I have a company that's completely remote. I'm doing executive coaching. I have several clients that I coach that I've never met in person, yet we have deep, meaningful conversations. Tears are shed on Zoom. People are wrestling through some big, big things. You have to weigh up both.
In that, I agree with you that ‘only’ is doing the heavy lifting here because connection can be made if we are going into an interaction with each other. I mean, you and I have had some of our deepest conversations over Zoom before we hit record. You can if you are used to it, which we all are, and you can sense the other person is leaning in and engaged and listening. But again, I mean, how we met was on-site at an Owner Camp, networking, sitting next to each other at lunch and striking up a conversation just randomly. That's super powerful. Some of the friendships that I've made at those events I know will last me a lifetime. I'm not sure that would've happened if I was just attending Zoom conferences. I don't know. Take that as you may.
Rob:
Yeah, I think that's right. I think I'm with you that several accidental relationships that I've had have come from being in the same space as somebody. I do think there is some intentional things we can do through design and our actions to help break down those barriers, but being forced into a common space with somebody for a day, two days, whatever, to have that reoccurring thing happen over those couple days does change a lot and is really powerful.
But it's not the only way to do it, right?
Traci:
Right.
Rob:
I can think of plenty of examples that aren't that way at all.
Traci:
Right. And I think one of the things, as we look back on these four myths too, is that there's a generational thing going on right now, and I'm hearing it over and over again. I experienced it in my own opinions and I try to wrestle through those and make sure I have a wider lens. But there's four generations right now in the workplace and the range of experience... I mean, we have some people that have entered the workforce post-college that this is the only world they know. They've never been in an office building having an experience like their parents and grandparents have had.
And so it's hard to let those things go when you know what's true to you and what you've experienced and the power of what you've experienced. It's hard to argue with somebody who's never had that experience and is telling you, "No, no, I have it just as good as how you had it." There's this arguing going on. It's the same thing that's going on about job hopping and how long the generations how long people are staying in a job versus the younger generations coming up feeling like the norm is to switch jobs every two years. I don't know what's right or wrong about that. All I know is there's a difference of opinion and there's a difference of experience.
And so this is just another example of how as leaders, we must broaden our lens. We must respect where people are coming from. Be curious about why they feel the way they feel. Both ways, right? We can't be like, "Okay, boomer." We have to say, "Well, what was it like? What is the water cooler? What's a water cooler?" There are generations coming up literally asking that question when people say, "Oh, well, it happens around the water cooler." They don't even know what that means. They've never been in a break room.
These are some of the things that I think are interesting and should we should take advantage of having all these different ages and experiences, whether we're an entrepreneur or whether we work in corporate America. I think it's really important to wrestle through all these opinions.
Rob:
This is an evolving landscape. This has changed a lot. Technology has aided some of this, as we mentioned over and over again. But the thing that we keep coming back to is intentional. You have to be intentional.
They wrap up this article with when and how it is still important to be together. I think it's worth mentioning that the three things that they list here at the end, which is voluntary. It should be voluntary if you show up or not, which I think that you can't make people do things, but you can heavily suggest it. I think that's good. Strategic, being able to make sure you use that time very well, and intentional. Those are the three things they say, "Hey, when we do this together, let's make sure we do those three things. You can choose to come, we're being strategic when we're together, and it's intentional time together."
Any thoughts there?
Traci:
Well, strategic and intentional solve so many issues. I mean, we said it over and over again, you can debunk each one of these myths if you just are strategic and intentional about what you're trying to provide for people and thinking it through, weighing it up, we're just going to give you the most bang for your buck—whether it's virtual or in-person—because you can mess up both super quickly, easily without being strategic in your planning, without being intentional in your delivery.
As far as voluntary, I think one of the things we need to remember is that we have different personalities in the workplace. We have introverts. We have extroverts. We have people that like big rooms, people that don't. We have all sorts of feelings going on. I like how you put it, where you want to strongly encourage that people attend these things because your introvert or your person that doesn't like walking into the room in the beginning, but then eventually it warms up and they end up having the best time of their life, those people are going to need some extra care to get there. Otherwise, they'll just opt out. We want to make sure that we're helping people push through their fear when we talk about engaging as teams and engaging with each other.
Sometimes, at least I've found in my coaching, that the pandemic and then going remote has exacerbated people's fears of interacting with others. Not to mention a divided world that's a bit messy right now, some people are just like, "You know what? Peace out. I'm going to just hibernate. I'll show up. I'll do the work. I'll log off and that's it." And that's not healthy.
We need to encourage our staff to push through the fear, show them the benefits of coming together, explain to them what they can expect and that they're going to be cared for. And that whether you are the guy who puts the lampshade on the head, or you're the person who wants to crawl back under the covers, we're going to be there for you. We're going to provide a space for you that's safe and fun. There are going to be moments that you can opt-in and opt-out of even while we're there together.
So I just want to toss that out there because I think when we just say, "We're going to have this event and you don't have to come if you don't want to, but we really hope you do," don't expect certain people to show up when you deliver it that way.
Rob:
And that's part of the culture piece. You can make people feel safe and that psychological safety is built into the culture. Those are things that will encourage people to show up if they're able to. I mean, like I said a few minutes ago, we had our first in-person retreat just recently and there was a couple people who couldn't make it. Those couple people had really good reasons. I wanted to see everybody there, and we did heavily suggest that people come and encouraged people to come, and there was some people who couldn't. And you know what we did? We intentionally designed a couple experiences for them to have some of those things happen remotely.
Traci:
Which is great. I think when you have these in-person events, this is why you need to be strategic and intentional because year two, if year one was really like blah, blah, not impactful, don't expect everybody to show up for year two. You better double down and make year one really, really good. I say this about meetings too. I'll show up to a meeting. When somebody tells me what to expect, that they're going to respect my time, that we're going to get this done and it's going to be well-run and all of that, I'm like, “All right, I'll sign up for that.” Manage people's expectations. You have to sell these things a little bit, and you have to deliver on what you're selling. There's just so much that goes into it.
And they give some tips at the end of this article about game playing and storytelling and having fun and all the things. I think if we sit down and if it's the committee or the leadership team or whatever and we're structuring this to make sure we're checking the boxes here as opposed to just showing up and making sure that the learning experiences are powerful and well done and that the leaders are leaning into them, that there's opportunities to laugh and just be goofy and to share stories and be vulnerable so that we build our trust.
There should be a checklist basically is what we're trying to say here. You need to not be half-assed in you're planning because, boy, people will be pretty mad about that, especially if they have to get on a plane.
Rob:
Yep. It has to be valuable.
Traci:
Exactly. Yeah.
Rob:
All right. Thanks, Traci.
Traci:
Thank you.
Announcer:
The Overly Human Podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. If you like what you've heard, subscribe and tell your friends to listen. Thanks.
