Results: The Five Dysfunctions of a Team
At the top of Patrick Lencioni’s five dysfunctions is the inattention to results. Traci Barrett and Rob Harr dive into why results are at the top of the five dysfunctions pyramid and discuss how falling to ego, being money-focused, and making a silo decision can all disrupt the team’s results.
Check out the other episodes in this series:
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human podcast where we discuss all things human in the workplace, because it's not just business, it's personal too.
Rob:
So we've talked about trust, healthy conflict, commitment, accountability and I think we're ready for the last part, which is results. And that's the last part of our pyramid that we've been building based on the Five Dysfunctions of a Team book from Patrick Lencioni.
And I think this is a really interesting way to structure this because it's a little backwards how I think most business people think about what's going on in their business. Like they start with results, and then they work backwards to figure out what it's going to take. And we've been on a six-week journey now actually talking about the foundational pieces that are required to have and to focus on the right results.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think he does a masterful job of building this pyramid because it forces us to actually think about what type of results. So like you said, usually, as a business owner, you go in and you say, “All right, this is what the percentage of profitability I want to have, this is the total revenue I want to bring in.” You start focusing on those metrics, but you don't think about the psychology of the team to actually care about those metrics.
So the type of results we're talking about are collective results, that the team cares collectively about the overarching results of the company. And the kind of the task at hand for any business owner, any leader within a company, is how do we keep people focused on those results on the results of the company? What keeps us, what are the distractions that keep us from being focused on those results? And the easiest answer for that is ourselves. Human nature.
This is why we're talking about this because it's overly human and human nature leads us to self-interest, self-preservation. And we've talked about that actually, it's kind of interesting with each one of these dysfunctions, what can trip us up? What can trip us up? And this is true about this dysfunction as well, is that ego and self-interest can kill a team. It can kill a team.
So as business owners and leaders, we have to take the bull by the horns and we have to build a system that allows people to care for the company and care for these results, which is a different way, a different mentality.
Rob:
And I think that it's important to point out that it's not always somebody doing that on purpose. It's not somebody who's necessarily out to not do those things. But what I think that we both have learned that if you're not focused on what those team results are, then people will default into taking care of their selves and not being intentional with their actions. And I think that it's really, really important that we call these things out because of where the default leads us.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think it's so interesting that you say that it's such a great reminder is that sometimes it's not the fault of the people that we work with. Right?
And I've gone into teams before and they have no measuring stick. They have no metrics. And oftentimes I find that leaders can shy away from it because they're nervous about it. Again, it's a tool of holding each other accountable, which can be scary. They might be scared that if we pick metrics and we measure against those, we might not meet them. Or they might think that the metrics are only for them.
So sometimes I have owners, they've got their P and L sheets and they have all their metrics laid out and they're looking at them all the time, but they don't share them with the rest of the team. They think they're just for them. But what we don't realize is it's a beautiful and great tool to have a scoreboard.
And I love to tell the story, one of my favorite stories of illustrating why we need a scoreboard, is watching my daughter's fourth grade basketball team play. And there they are, they're going, they're playing another team and their little fourth grade selves, just trying to get that ball down the court and get it in the basket. And the scoreboard broke. It went completely black and there was no fixing it. So we just had whoever was sitting at the score table, just started keeping score on a piece of paper, and the kids couldn't function. They kept looking back up at that scoreboard expecting it to go on. They got very disoriented. They kept screaming up to their parents, “What's the score? Did that count?”And it was really funny. The parents couldn't help but laugh because their little fourth grade brains couldn't function without that scoreboard.
And I thought to myself, what an amazing illustration of what happens in the workplace when we don't have a scoreboard, when the team doesn't know how they're doing, when there's no place for measurement or metrics to understand, it's really hard for a team to play well. And that's really what causes them to default to self-interest. “Well, if I don't know how the team's being measured or what I should even be thinking about, I'm only going to think about how I'm doing.”
Rob:
Yeah. I think that's a great illustration Traci, about why scoreboards are really important to our teams. We need some way to measure collectively how we're doing so that we can have those honest conversations about how to do better. If we don't know where we're at and we have no agreed upon measures, how are we possibly supposed to have that feedback loop to get better?
Traci:
Exactly. Because hopefully we have a lot of self-starters on our team that care about their own individual stats, but we know when we're watching a football game or basketball game, that, and in the time of the game we don't care about the individual stats of a player, we just care for winning or losing. Right? So we want to make sure that the team knows where we're collectively going. And there's a long list we can choose from to fill our scoreboard, but we only need to pick a few metrics. The ones that really we care about as a team. We don't have to measure everything, but pick something to put on that scoreboard.
Rob:
And I actually think it's really important to narrow down to only a couple things because too many things are a distraction. And if we don't as leaders prioritize what we're measuring, then what'll happen is that you might have different team members prioritizing different numbers. And that's almost the worst possible thing is when everybody thinks they're working together, but are actually prioritizing different things. It's this whole idea of what gets measured gets done. And I think that most humans have the ability to have three or four things they are actively watching and measuring against. And if it gets beyond that, then you end up in a little bit of chaos.
Traci:
Yeah, it's true. And I think that when we pick the metrics that we feel are most important or what we really care about for the team and for the company, and we stick to those things that what that helps us do is to not fall prey to subjectivity. We want to make sure there's not a loose interpretation about what this goal is, that it's clear. So when we pick those certain things and make it very clear, we commit to it and then we publicly display it. Then we can hold each other accountable, and then we know collectively what are the results that we are headed towards. So we want to be public about it. We want it to be clear, and we want to continually measure against that. And it just really helps the team.
Rob:
It totally does. And I think that… I love football. I watch way too much of it. I even like listening to the post-game press conferences where the coaches and the players, don't say anything but cliches. But one of the things that really sticks out to me is when they always say, “We win as a team, we lose as a team.” Because I think that's the mentality we're talking about here is if we don't collectively win, then we are going to collectively lose. And I think that helps fight against one of the biggest problems that Patrick Lencioni talks about, which is ego. You can't have one person win at what they set out to do if the team loses.
Traci:
That's exactly true. And we see so many examples of that in sports especially. One of the best examples—and Patrick Lencioni uses it in his book and it's just brilliant—is after Michael Jordan left The Bulls and Scottie Pippin was still on the team. And he really wanted to see his day in the sun and be the star player that Michael Jordan was when he was on the team. And they were playing against The Knicks, their rivals. The score is tied, like 30 seconds or even less on the clock and Phil Jackson calls the time out, says, "Hey, Pippin. You're going to throw the ball in to another player, and that player is going to make a shot, and that's how we're going to win the game." And Pippin is like, "No, somebody else is going to throw the ball in to me. I want to be the guy to make the shot. It's my game. I want to be the one who wins." And Phil Jackson said, "No, that's not going to happen." And Scottie Pippin refused to go on the court. He stayed on the bench, refused to go on. Phil Jackson didn't budge. He had somebody throw the ball in to another player, that player made the shot and they won the game.
And that is a story that Scottie Pippin's had to basically answer to and live up to for the rest of his life. And it was a clear example of how one ego—a very big ego—wanted to win. They wanted to win, not the team necessarily, he wanted his team to win, but he wanted to be the hero. He wanted to shine.
And sometimes we'll see that in everyday life in a team where, especially in the creative environment, there's a lot of creative directors or people who are trying to make it, make their mark in the tech world, and they want to win. They want to be known. They want some legacy. And I totally get that. We all have drive, and we all want to succeed, but ultimately for a company to succeed and for a team to be successful, we need put our ego aside. It's a hard thing to do, but we need to always have it in check.
I'm not saying that we have to stop thinking about what our needs and desires are, or our desire to shine and be successful and creative and innovative. We don't necessarily have to put it aside and it's not mutually exclusive, but we do need to take a ego pulse check often because it's just in our nature to put self before team. And you're not going to win from that. We're not going to have as much joy and enjoyment at work if we all have that attitude of putting self first.
Rob:
Yeah. You know, I think there is an implied part of all this, is sometimes winning as a team requires individuals to make sacrifices for the team to win. And I think that's the part that gets lost in all of this. When we talk about ego and the second one, which was career and money-focused, right? And even the third one, which is the silo decision. Those are all basically the same thing where everybody can collectively do what's best for them, does not serve the whole the best.
And what I think that says to me, is that it requires sacrifice sometimes on the parts to make it all work and I think that's a huge part of this and I think that's what it actually takes. That's why you have to have the trust and the conflict and the commitment and the accountability is so that you're willing to make those sacrifices to win together.
Traci:
And that's why vulnerability-based trust is so important, is the big building block, the foundation, is because when we talk about it, the distraction of career development and money, for instance, those are real things. We all have pressures outside of work. And I never want to diminish those. We all have bills we have to pay, families to support, futures that on the horizon that we want to aspire to, and it's not unreasonable. We need to respect and acknowledge those pressures and desires that we have individually within our team and address them.
And that's part of being vulnerable to say, “Like look, I know this is a team goal and I want to get there, but just so you guys know, I'm feeling a lot of pressure. I need to make this bonus, or I need to make ... “ To be able to be vulnerable with each other and say, “These are the things I'm individually struggling with. Can you guys help me?”
And to just let the team sometimes vent that they want to publish something or they want some individual to reach an individual goal. And to be honest with each other about that, and that also helps when you're getting stuff out on the table to reach those collective results together, when we're being honest about even our own individual struggles within the journey of getting there.
Rob:
That's so great. I love that idea of having everybody come to those meetings and those conversations with all of their motives. This is why it's important. This is why I feel like we should do this. And even if it's a reason that is based in one of these three distractions, letting your team members know that that's one of the reasons is huge, because at least it's all out there on the table and we can talk through those things and see if there's merit in some of those things.
Because we are a group of humans trying to help each other out and get to where we're going together. And the not speaking those truths out in public is dangerous because you can fall servant to those things that we don't put words to.
Traci:
That's very true. And then it's the same with your own silo in your own department that you might be running. I mean, that is the number one cause for company politics, is when we set our internal team, we put over the greater team, which is just another layer, right? So you might put your individual self over the team, but then you also might just put your own little division over the team. And we see this, well, we see this happen in politics. We see this happen within businesses that can cause a lot of friction. This is where accountability is really key too.
So not only can we put our individual interests on the table and be honest about it, but we can also hold each other accountable and say, the reason you're trying to make this decision, or the reason you're fighting for this is because you want this for your team. Let's just call it out. Let's just call it out and we totally get it. But right now we're talking about the company, not just your section of the team." And so when we can use that healthy conflict and accountability tools, that also helps to navigate these distractions.
Rob:
And I think that that's something that I try to say to our leadership team all the time, is this is your first team. This is where your allegiance lies because we can serve everyone best when we win as a group from the top. And it's like that gets back to the goal setting, and setting those results, is if everyone is involved in helping set those goals, then those goals ought to filter down and make everyone's team win and better off in the long run. And I think that both those things have to be in check. If you don't have the group level helping set the goals, then you're more likely to have that siloed and people trying to achieve their own things because their goals weren't considered as part of the bigger teams.
Traci:
Right. Exactly.
Traci:
I think one more layer to put on top of this is that oftentimes people need a why in addition to the metrics. Because sometimes they'll get a little cynical or jaded and be like, “Oh, this is just all about money” or, “Oh, this is just all about profitability” or, “Oh, this is just all about, the owner's pocket book in the end and in the long run.”
And the best way to mitigate that is to have a mission, have a mission for your company, create and articulate that mission and create and articulate the vision and values of your company. If we can get our teams to really believe in something outside of themselves, believe in the mission of the company, that helps them to understand that this isn't just all about money.
I mean, money's great. Profitability is great. We want to be successful. We want to reach these metrics. We want to win, but why do we want to win? What ultimately are we trying to accomplish? What positive impact is our little company trying to make in our little portion of the world? And I know it might sound a little cheesy to some, but man, it really works. And our team wants that.
And I think even when I look at the world and society around us today, I feel like one of the reasons why we're so divided as a country is because we have forgotten the greater mission beyond ourselves. We've become so wrapped up in self and so wrapped up in our own internal teams that we've forgotten the greater mission of our country or the greater values of our country that hold a society together. And it's the same thing that happens within a company.
When we forget those things, when we don't have a greater thing to aspire to, there's breakdown, there's breakdown in the team, there's breakdown in the company. And we start to see things unravel or we start to see things, all the weight be put against money or all the weight be put against metrics. We need a balance there. We need that greater good to really unify the team and drive us in the right direction for the right reasons.
Rob:
It's the very human side of all of this. It's the reason we started talking about all the topics we talk about on this podcast and why we're so focused on the humans involved in our business. They have wants and desires and those wants and desires can't be boiled down to purely business metrics all the time. It's not just business—it's personal, right? How many times have we said that? And I think that all of those things have to be considered.
We talk about mission, vision, values, all the time, but then we also say one of business goals is to have happy, healthy well-adjusted humans and families. And if we put that on the same pedestal as our business metrics, then it allows us, let's everyone on our team to be able to call it out like, “Hey, our, this is good. We're achieving this, but are we still taking care of people?”
Traci:
Right. And it's, you have to have both sides. It doesn't work without one side or the other. You can't just have a healthy, happy team and not have a strong operating business. And you can't have a strong operating business and not have a healthy, happy team. You need both.
And so the two tools that we're talking about here at the top of the pyramid with focusing on results is creating a mission, vision, values, and then the other side, having a scoreboard and executing upon it, having goals and strategies and direction and ways to get there. If you have those two buckets created, articulated, and clearly communicated to the team, you have majorly increased your chances of success on both sides.
Rob:
Yes. And that's what we're all after, is trying to do this to the best of our ability while making sure that we're taking care of the humans that are involved with it so that it can last the test of time.
Traci:
Right. That's right. And I love how all the pieces of this fit together. And I know it can, for many leaders, it can feel a little overwhelming, but really all we're doing is bringing into our awareness, bringing it into the awareness of our team, and then just continually measuring these things, continually taking the pulse of how we are doing as a team. How are we doing on trust? How are we doing in conflict? How are we doing in commitment? How are we doing on accountability? How do our results look?
And if we as leaders and that's part of our ... If we're looking through our roles and responsibilities as leaders, this falls into that. Sometimes it's hard for a CEO to understand exactly what their role is when they are not in the day-to-day production of things anymore. Well, guess what? This is one of your major, major roles and responsibilities, is taking a pulse on all five of these areas and seeing what do you need to pump up and what do you need to lean back on, so that you have balance in all of these for your team.
Rob:
Yeah. And there's a beauty to this too I think, that these five things are pretty simple. And I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes is "Don't confuse simple with easy." These are five things that are really simple all in themselves, but it's definitely not easy to keep them forefront and remind yourself and to execute on them together. And to keep a group of people who have a ton of different responsibilities. When we're talking about our leadership teams, we've got people from all the different disciplines and a bunch of different focus that have very different jobs, working together. And it's not easy to keep that intentionality there so they're doing well together.
Traci:
Right. It isn't, and that's why frameworks are really handy. This is a framework, right? Like you said, it's a simple framework. It's complex to execute and there's different tentacles and things that we have to become skilled at as leaders. But that's the exciting part, is, “Boy, I want to become more skilled at healthy conflict. I want to become more skilled at vulnerability-based trust...” This should be exciting to us as leaders. It's so great to have a framework. And I'm so excited that we did this series because I think it is a simple framework with tons of power.
Rob:
And I think that's just it, is I think we can, most of us will spend the rest of our careers trying to get good at it and trying to figure out what works and what motivates your team. And since humans are this dynamic, evolving, changing thing over time, then what works today won't necessarily work as well tomorrow. We need new things and new groups and teams change. And it's just, this is the work.
Traci:
Yeah. It's good work though. It's great work. It's exciting work.
Rob:
Yeah. It is. Thank you, Traci. I appreciate it.
Traci:
Thank you. It was really fun.
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