Accountability: The Five Dysfunctions of a Team
In this episode, Traci Barrett and Rob Harr talk about the fourth of Patrick Lencioni’s five dysfunctions: poor accountability. Peer-to-peer accountability allows teams to deal with challenges themselves without leadership needing leadership to intrude. Learn how you can lead accountability by example to build peer-to-peer accountability that empowers your team.
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Rob:
So when we were going through the book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, one of the sections that really stood out to me was this whole idea of accountability and specifically peer-to-peer accountability.
And one of those reasons that really stuck with me was I think like a lot of small businesses, Sparkbox is fairly flat. We have a lot more structure than we used to. We used to be a really flat organization where everybody reported directly to me. And once we got to a certain size that was no longer sustainable, but now we have a team of directors who manage people. But there's a lot of varieties of what the people who work for me do. We've got biz dev, we've got delivery, we've got some technical director, creative director, communications, all kinds of different roles.
And when I was reading about this idea of peer to peer accountability, it really stood out to me. I was like," “That. That's what I need. That's what we need as a group.” Because like one of my goals is to not have to be involved with everything. Is how do I have autonomy again and give autonomy to the people that work for me.
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Rob:
I think that that whole peer-to-peer accountability can be an unlock so that they can work together to solve problems and not necessarily have the accountability come from the top down. And I think that's what's missing from a lot of our organizations.
Traci:
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I think it is very indicative of these kind of small entrepreneurial companies because we start out and it's a very much a team atmosphere when you're building a company and you do stay flat for a certain period of time. And maybe you add a leadership team or a couple of co-leaders with you and the whole idea of embracing accountability and having this peer-to-peer accountability, what it does is it breaks down exactly what you're talking about, which is kind of an us versus them mentality within the team. So the CEO or the owner versus the rest of the team, or once you form a leadership team, the leadership team versus everybody else. And the best way to break that down is when the entire team not just feels accountable, but are holding each other accountable.
And that's why this being the next rung up the ladder in the pyramid of Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions makes a ton of sense. Because if you have a team that trusts each other and they know how to have healthy conflict and they know how to commit and buy-in to the decisions that they've made as a team, the next step is holding each other accountable for those decisions, for how we've agreed to behave and the goals that we've set, those results that we're going after. We're not just going to keep looking to the leader, like what you're describing. Like everybody's like, eyeballs are on you. And you have to be the one that makes sure everybody's doing their job and performing well and behaving well. That's a lot for a leader and it doesn't work as well as this model that we're talking about.
Rob:
It really struck me when I was reading this about the different dynamics that go into a peer-to-peer accountability kind of situation, right? I’ve worked with some of the same people at Sparkbox for over 10 years at this point, right? We've been doing this awhile, good relationships.
But there is part of me that knows and accepts the fact that I will never escape the power dynamic that exists as somebody who is the owner of a company who has employees and the difference in the relationships and the different weight that I can bring to a conversation or to a situation. And, I think that sometimes can get in the way of some of the other things lower on the pyramid, like good conflict and all of that and all of those pieces.
But when we talk about this peer-to-peer accountability, like you're taking away some of those power dynamics stuff and giving it over to people who have almost formed friendships that have to figure out how to hold each other accountable in a healthy way.
Traci:
Yeah. And that's the hard thing. I mean, when we go in and do the Five Dysfunction team-building workshop with companies, what we do before we go in is we send in a survey that everybody on the team takes and it ranks how you're doing on each of these levels of the pyramid. And if I were to lay out all of the surveys we've done, I'd say accountability is the one that always scores the lowest. And it's because it's elusive in a number of ways. And when I talk to owners, one of the reasons it is, is because they've never actually talked about it with a team. They've never stood before the team and actually said the definition.
So the definition, so we're all on the same page, is that accountability is the willingness of team members to remind one another when they are not living up to the performance standards of the group. So the team must be willing to remind each other when they're not living up both behaviorally and results-wise to the standards we've set for the team.
So when I say that definition, everybody looks in there like, huh. Because typically on great teams, we don't have a problem holding ourselves accountable, right? Especially if you have a really strong team—overachievers, people who really want to do a good job—they only think about their own bar that they have to reach. And they only think about maybe how they react to you, the owner, or to their boss, right? They're not necessarily thinking, Oh, I need to hold Susie next to me accountable. Or I expect Susie to hold me accountable and say something. That's a whole different level of accountability that we're talking about here, but it's super powerful.
Rob:
Yeah, and super necessary. And my brain like always thinks about sports analogies. And I think about, it's a team, it's a football team and everybody's got assigned responsibilities. And if everyone takes care of their responsibilities and does their job, then good things will happen and we can all be successful together. But if one little part breaks down and other people have to compensate for them or pick up the pieces, then the whole thing gets blown up really quick.
Traci:
Yeah. And the motivation behind this working is peer-pressure really, or a distaste for letting your fellow teammates down, right? So it's going to be one or the other or both together. There's something powerful about, “I don't want to let my teammates down because I know they're watching because we're holding each other accountable.” And that happens on a team. That happens on a sports team, right? When you're playing a game, you don't want to let the team... You don't want to be the one who fumbles the ball, right?
And so this is that same mentality where the team is supporting each other and they want you to succeed. And so they are actually leaning into accountability, not because they want to call you out and be like, dude, you suck. But they want to help you be more successful.
So if we can train our teams to have that mindset of, look this is constructive criticism, this isn't criticism. Like I'm just asking you, “How's it going? It seems like you might need some help. Can I come alongside you?” There's a way to execute accountability that helps, again, maintain that safe environment that we're looking for throughout this entire process of team building.
Rob:
It also feels like there's a big part of this that helps define what the roles are and what the expectations are for the different roles. And I think that that goes a long way when we talk about humans working together and what the expectations are for them, right? Like there are some roles on our teams that will get more recognition or easier to see what the results are. And there are some roles that people play that are a little bit more in the weeds in that you have to like look for those pieces.
But I think this allows us all to have an equal playing field to recognize like, okay, this is your responsibility. This is what makes us successful together. Here's how we're going to do this. And if that's all leveled, that helps everybody even in some of those, I hate to say it, less glamorous roles or operations roles, like know where they fit and be like, no, I contribute this way. And if nothing else, this allows this person to go do this and do that well. And it's that collective one teamness that I think that really allows us to achieve next-level results.
Traci:
Yeah. And that's why, again, we always talk about how clarity is kind. And I think accountability charts are having a defined understanding of what you're responsible for in your current role is really important. Knowing how you can not just meet expectations, but exceed expectations is really important. Especially if you're somebody who really cares about your job. If you don't know what it looks like to your owner to shine, then that leaves you a bit in the dark. And so when I'm giving teammates sort of what their role expectations are, what they're responsible for, I also paint a picture of what it looks like to exceed those expectations. This is what it looks like to knock the ball out of the park. And I think that's super helpful for people because it's clear to them.
Rob:
Yeah. I always like to talk about, okay, “Here is the goals that are obtainable that we're trying to reach. And here are the stretch goals that I think that we could get to. My expectation is, is you will achieve every single one of the attainable goals. Now, if we do really well or have time or have the capacity and we can achieve some of these, that's great, but not at the expense of any of the other ones that are expected.”
So like, it's that whole difference between attainable goals and aspirational goals. Let's be really clear about what those are and we'll write them down that way. And I think that really helps. Make sure that that's really clear about what can be sacrificed for the other.
Traci:
Right. And I think that's just one of the tools that kind of fits in the results bucket. Like if we're looking at behavioral expectations we have as a team and results expectations, defining roles, defining goals for the individual, but also for the team. Like the team should know, again when we've talked about this in the past, what's the goal? What's the goal for this quarter? What's the goal for this year? How are we tracking it? How do we know we're on track? Are we off track?
Because we want the team to feel, again, that this goes beyond just them. We're not talking about just them holding themselves accountable and reaching the goal. We're talking about the team together. So if one team member looks like they're slipping up or tripping up or has hit a wall in some way, we all feel like, Oh my gosh, well that means the team might not win. Might not get to the goal we're collectively trying to get to. So we need to go to that person and find out what's going on. Hold them accountable in some way.
So, always pointing back to the sort of that team. And we can do that in our meetings, like again, using your meetings effectively so we know what everybody's working on. We know where we're tracking the goal. We know what our priorities are for that week or month or however you break things up for your team. I think is really a great way of measuring your accountability. Knowing if that accountability is actually working.
Rob:
And I think that even in one of the things that I've been doing a lot of trying to foster this and my team of leaders is, in my one-on-ones with people when they say, well, I'm having this kind of thing go on with this individual. I'm like, okay, are you asking me to become involved? Or would you like to handle this on your own? If you'd like to handle on your own, which is what I would suggest, think about this. Have you said this to this person? Have you worked through it? Like, remember this person's personality is like this, or this is how they usually receive feedback.
And like coaching them on how they can approach those other team members to help build those trust levels and those patterns so they can do that accountability with each other. And I think that's a huge part of it, of just being a leader of seeing those opportunities to help remind people of like, “Hey yeah, if this crosses some line, I'll be happy to get involved. But when I get involved, then you will have lost the ability for this situation to be the person that's helping hold them accountable from a peer-to-peer level.”
Traci:
Right. And it reminds me of the best parenting advice I think I've gotten. I've gotten some great parenting advice. I'm all into the, it takes a village way of thinking, because I think it's just the way that I like to operate. I want to hear from different mothers and fathers that are a few steps ahead of me. And the best advice I got was when your kids—because my two girls are very close in age—are arguing with each other, even at a toddler age, encourage them to work it out between the two of them. Because kids inevitably always come running to Mommy. “Mommy they took this. Mommy they won't give this back. Mommy this toy.” Right?
And I started that from day one with them of like, well, you guys need to work it out. And again, like you're saying, I would get involved if it escalated to a point where they couldn't work it out, or it was something that was really difficult for them to navigate. I was there kind of hovering in the background and I could intervene.
But today they're teenagers and I can hear them in the other room say, "Well, you didn't borrow that. You borrowed that without asking, Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. I won't do that next time.” And they're working it out. And they learn that at a very young age. And I bring up that example because there's so many leaders in the workplace that miss that advice, right? And they feel like it's part of their job as a leader to continually lean into these issues to step into every single difficult conversation or issue. Because they feel like honestly, that's their job and that's their way of being a good leader.
But what you're describing is kind of stepping back and giving space for your team to really hold each other accountable and to learn for themselves what it means to really lead each other as opposed to lord over, right? And the fact that you're saying and coaching your employee how to do it is a beautiful thing. And then also saying, look, I'm here for you. Like I'm not leaving you alone and I'm not passing the buck off on you, but I'm saying you two need to have this skill with each other where you're able to work things out.
And to watch it play out and the fruits you get out of training your teammates to do that is this accountability we're talking about. It's a different level of accountability. And when it doesn't work and I've seen this over and over again, is when the leader doesn't have the courage to hold people accountable.
Like if I come into an environment and I'm sort of assessing a team to figure out why isn't accountability working, sometimes I'll see it's because the leader or the owner just doesn't like it. They don't like holding people accountable. They don't like feedback. They don't like giving feedback. They don't like receiving feedback. It's just a little underlying fear that kind of messes them up and trips them up.
And when the team sees that the leader's not into it and the leader doesn't like to hold people accountable and the leader won't step into messes, like they're conflict avoidant, then the teammates won't do it. Even if they want to they won't do it because they just don't feel like it's worth it. Because if in the end, the leader doesn't have their back or isn't going to do it themselves, then the team will not hold.
So, there's levels. The leader has to lead by example. And the leader also has to back up and let the teammates work this out themselves.
Rob:
Like another piece of all that though, is the leader also has to be able to set clear priorities, right? And that's one of the things that I take pretty seriously in my job in my role at Sparkbox. No longer am I the person who's usually the chief problem solver on any given set of problems, but it is my job to make sure I've ranked priorities for us as a group and say, “This is the most important. This differs to this, this differs to that. And if you want to sit down and we can all sit down together and talk about all the things we're chasing, I'm happy to help rank the importance of those things.”
And I think that helps our staff and the people that report to us be able to make decisions, right? You're giving them a rubric, that plus our values, plus our mission vision, give us a toolkit to make decisions together and give us the ability to talk about the best way to solve things rather than how I want them solved.
Traci:
Right. And I think that for most teams, if they get accountability right, they typically get accountability with this first bucket we've been talking about. Which are results, priorities, goals, projects, but the second bucket can sometimes be harder and that's behavioral.
Traci:
Holding each other accountable on our core values, on the way we behave with each other, on our attitude. It's a little trickier, right? Because that hits a little bit more personal and it can sometimes be harder for our teammates to hear. Like, dude, in the meeting you were a little quick. Or your were curt or what you said to Susie was a little bit hurtful. Like those types of conversations can be more delicate and they can be harder, but they're still as necessary.
And I think one of the best tools that I have and that we do with teams it's called different things depending on what philosophy you follow. But Patrick Lencioni calls it the team effectiveness exercise. Some people call it the two questions. Some people call it the one thing. And basically we do it with leadership teams. So for on an offsite or a retreat, or we have a meeting where we're doing strategy, but we have some extra time.
We'll have the leadership team sitting at a table and we'll ask two questions. We'll ask what is the single most important behavioral characteristic or quality that this person contributes to the team. And the second question is what's the single most important behavioral characteristic or quality that this person can do to derail the team.
So it's basically one positive that you add to the team and one sort of negative kind of behavior that can sometimes throw us off course. And everybody has to say it about each person around the table.
We always start with the leader, the owner, or the CEO or whatever. We start with them first. And every teammate has to go around and say the one positive thing. And then we go around and say the one negative thing. And the person has to sit there and just listen, right? And then at the end, I'll say, “Were you surprised? Not surprised? How did that feel? Any clarification needed?” And 99.9% of the time, people aren't surprised.
They know this about themselves. They feel really good about hearing the positive. Sometimes they don't know that. The negative, they typically know. They're like, yep. I know that. I keep doing it, I'm trying to work on it. I know I can do that. Whether it's being quick-tempered or whatever it is negative or... But the positive I think is what sits with them more where they're like, Oh! And then we can talk about, well, how do you optimize that? Lean into that. I want to see more of that.
So it's just a great exercise because what tends to happen is our blind spot—and I know we've talked about this on other episodes—that blind spot will come up. But until we speak it out in the open, it's really hard to hold somebody accountable. It's hard for me to come up to you and say, “Did you know this about you?” But if we've said it in a meeting and I say, “Hey Rob, that little blind spot just happened in the last meeting.” You're like, “Damn it.” You can say, “All right, thanks for letting me know. Like he hit my trigger. I need to learn how to deal with that.”
So when it's out in the open, it's so much easier to hold each other accountable. And if you can have a leadership team that can do this, then we can translate that to the rest of the team.
Rob:
That's pretty neat. I like that exercise.
We used to do something similar back in a former life when we had a business with multiple partners. We used to do quarterly reviews where we'd go around and do like you would get to everyone would review one person. That person couldn't talk until everybody went and then it could ask questions and all of that. And those were always pretty humbling moments from trying to figure that stuff out. But I think we always left those meetings and those times together feeling like we understood each other better and that we were prepared to do and work together better. So I think that's a huge part of that.
And I think that just one more piece of advice that I've seen work with that from a leader perspective, to get your team doing that is if you get called out or if somebody privately calls you out, make those call outs public if you're the leader.
One of the things that I try to do, and I'm not always great at it, is if you step in one of those things where your blind spots or you end up a little short, is apologize to the whole group. Say, “Hey, someone called to my attention that I was like this, I recognize that. I'm sorry. Please know that I would like you to call me on this in the future if I do it again.”
Traci:
Yeah. I think that to be able to apologize and for people to know you're working on it, I think is really important. I tell teams as a rule that they should praise in public and criticize in private. So when we're holding somebody accountable for their negative behavior, you want to do that one-on-one in private. And then that person can decide whether they want to go and apologize to the group.
I think you'll see how far along they are in their journey to working on their blind spot, by how public there'll be in their apology. If it's still raw, they're just starting to work on it. They're trying to get some coaching, trying to deal with the triggers and understand why it's happening. They might maybe do a one-on-one apology to a person, but they're going to be less public about it until they become comfortable with knowing why it's happening and how to tackle it. And once they get more comfortable, then they're going to be like, “I did it again guys, sorry.” They're going to be more open.
So we want to make sure that we have a level of grace involved in this process. But again, the leader sets the example. So the fact that you, as a leader, know what your triggers are and know what your blind spots are and you're able to openly call them out and apologize, and quickly move on. It's like, “Okay, I'm not going to dwell on it. I want to apologize, but we're going to move forward team.” That sets the tone. Then everybody's like, “Oh, this is a safe... Oh, I can do that. Oh, look, he just did it so easily.” And so you're setting that tone for the team. And again, it just makes everything stronger and safer.
Rob:
Trying to set the tone for the team.
Traci:
Try, just try. It's never going to be perfect, but try.
Rob:
It never is perfect. And I think that, like the last point that I'd like to kind of make about this whole idea of peer-to-peer accountability, as Patrick Lencioni kind of talks about it is, so many owners that I talk to in these small businesses want to find ways to make the business less reliant on them. And I think that this is one of those secret unlocks.
Like if you want to not have to be involved in every facet of your business every day and have it depend on you, be the single point of success because I hate the other way. Like the single point of failure has no belonging in my lexicon anymore. If you don't want to be the single point of success, then we can give authority to our teammates to do the right things together by holding each other accountable, to making good business decisions, to move the business forward if we lean into this. And if not, if authority only flows one way, we're screwed long-term.
Traci:
Yeah. And you are working way too hard as a leader. My mentor that I had for years and years, one of the best bits of advice he gave me was when you go on vacation, if no one calls you, you're doing a good job. And I remember thinking, well that's weird. Don't they need me. And he's like, “No, your goals should be to make them not need you for the whole place not to implode just because you decided to take a vacation for a few days.”
So if you're a leader listening to this and you can't take a vacation, you feel like you can't take a vacation or you take a vacation and everybody's calling you, then this embracing accountability step in the pyramid is something you really need to investigate and get behind for your team.
Rob:
Absolutely. Well, that was a lot of fun, Traci.
Traci:
Yeah. Thanks for chatting again. We're getting through the pyramid. Next time it's going to be the top of the pyramid. We've got one more to go.
Rob:
Ooh. So quick tease, what is the next one?
Traci:
Collective results.
Rob:
Ooh, that sounds like fun.
Traci:
Yeah. The tip of the pyramid.
Rob:
All right, until next time.
Traci:
Until next time.
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