Finding the Silver Lining of the Great Resignation
This Great Resignation has left a lot of companies with many open positions and a feeling of self-doubt with everyone leaving. But with every raincloud, there is a silver lining. In this episode, Rob and Traci discuss how this mass shift in employees has actually positively impacted teams being vision-centered and how saying goodbye can be a great thing for the future of the company.
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Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human Podcast, where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it’s personal, too.
Rob:
Before we get started with the episode we have today, I just want to take one quick moment and say something to Traci. Traci, happy 50th episode. We've made it. This is number 50!
Traci:
Wow, this is exciting. I mean, it's flown by. I cannot believe we've done 50 episodes. And it's been so fun. But wow, we did it.
Rob:
Yeah. I wasn't sure when we started this little project a couple years ago, that this was ever going to last 10, let alone 50.
Traci:
Your expectations were so high.
Rob:
Well, I mean, my expectations were probably appropriate. That's usually where I walk that line is that realistic space on the optimistic side.
Traci:
I know, it's great. It's not an easy feat. I think because there are so many podcasts out there, I think you can go into it thinking, "Oh, okay, well..." And then you get into it and you realize, "Wow, this is a lot of work." And we have an amazing, amazing, amazing team at Sparkbox, who really do all the hard stuff, and make us look good. So, thank you to our fabulous, fabulous, fabulous team.
Rob:
They're great.
And it either means one of two things: That we're getting better at this, or we have no idea when to quit.
Traci:
Exactly. I mean, give us a topic. We're going to talk. It's going to happen.
Rob:
And really, that's how a lot of this whole thing was born, out of you and I getting together, talking about this stuff anyway and thinking, "Huh, I wonder if we could hit record and have something good come out of it."
Traci:
Exactly. It's been so fun.
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
I'm happy.
Rob:
Me too. We'll see. To 50 more. Let's keep going. To 50 more.
Traci:
To 50 more. Yeah.
Rob:
Well, today, we're going to talk about The Great Resignation, but the angle we're going to take on it is talk about the silver lining of the turnover we're seeing in our companies.
And I know this is something that I thought a lot about recently, and it's interesting because we have always had pretty low turnover. Well below industry average. Usually, less than 10% for most of our existence, up until last year when our turnover was right around 30%, give or take a couple points. And that's still below industry average, which in some cases, a lot of cases was that 40%, in some cases I've heard of even higher than that.
But there was a lot of last year that was pretty demoralizing, as it seemed like almost every week, somebody was resigning or we were celebrating somebody on their way out. And it almost felt like we were doing something wrong because it was so different.
And my perspective on that is quite a bit different today than it was when I was going through it. And it started shifting about 75% of the way through last year. And I spent the rest of the year trying to talk to our leadership team and the people that I work with that, "Hey, maybe there's another way to look at all this."
And as we were talking about this last week, after we stopped recording, we thought this might be a really interesting conversation to share with y'all.
Traci:
Yeah. I think that nobody that I know, or have been working with as clients, have been immune to this situation. Like you said, it felt like an aberration because it was an aberration compared to previous years. And that was the case for many of our clients and friends that we spoke to where it was like, "Wow, we actually are experiencing this." And to get to a place where you can have the right mindset to understand the benefits of, we call it the great shift or reshuffle, because in this industry, the industry that we tend to be talking to the most in the tech agency world, there's just been a lot of shifting around. And there's various reasons. I mean, there have been some people who have just exited the industry altogether, but for the most part, we've seen a lot of shifting around.
And it's been an interesting journey for a lot of business owners because it's made them think about their team, the complexion of their team, the makeup of team. We've had people leave for some of our owners that they didn't want to leave. That was really hard, like a little bit of a sucker punch. And then there are some people that just needed to leave. They knew they needed to leave. The owners or the leaders felt like, "Yeah, you're right. This is the time. It's been a good run and it's time to start fresh."
But regardless of why anybody leaves, you do have to reevaluate and it does take a lot of energy to restaff. And we don't want to downplay that because it's hard for us and it's hard for the team to have to find somebody, train somebody, and bring them up to speed. But there is benefit to that new blood, to that new complexion of the team overall.
And maybe you can talk to what you've seen because you've restaffed everybody that has left. Are you fully staffed now?
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
And how does it feel, comparatively, overall, as a team? The complexion of the team?
Rob:
I think we're in a better state than we were. This is a nuanced conversation. This is tough to talk about because there are a lot of people who have decided to move on from Sparkbox, who I miss personally, and I really enjoyed working with. And they were absolutely vital to getting us to where we needed to be.
But it's also impossible for me to look back and talk about where we are today, and not be really satisfied with the team makeup. And it's really made me stop and ask, "Well, I wonder why that is. If we had the right people, and I feel like we have the right people now, what's going on?"
And I think that something I want to say right up front is this absolutely is influenced by my overall perspective on business, which is, I have to be forward-facing. I deal with the reality of what I have today and replan and retool for tomorrow. And any time that I have been in a state where I've spent too long gazing backwards, it's gotten me in trouble because my eyes aren't up to where we're going. So, some of this is absolutely colored by this bias of looking for that silver lining, and plotting that next step, and what do we have to do?
But I think there's some other parts of it too which come down to this giant change that we've seen in our business the last three years—from the pandemic and moving from a hybrid to fully remote, and all kinds of other subtle changes that were almost forced upon us from the outside—made us a different company. And if we're a different company, then we're going to attract somebody who's looking for that today. And that's not why all of the people that were here that have left, joined in the first place. They were looking for the company we were at that moment, who we were, how we were structured, all of those things and those changes. People don't change and evolve at the same rate.
One of the things that I know that I've said to almost every single person that's ever worked for me is, "Listen, here's the deal. Let's kick as much butt as we possibly can during our time together, our season, and when and if our goals change, our end changes, we can go our separate ways. And it doesn't mean that either of us were wrong in that season, it just means that we're growing apart and that's okay. I'm okay with that. You should be too."
Traci:
Yeah. I think that what's interesting about this time that's different than in the past where you've had an employee leave and you need to keep that mindset that you're holding them with an open palm, and try to find the good in everything, and wish them well. Is when you have several people leave in the same year. What can happen is owners can start to doubt themselves and leaders can start to think what's happening, and you can start to have some feelings permeate the entire team. And you can get nervous and you can get kind of panicky.
And I think that's one of the reasons why, when we were talking about how it's happening to so many people and there's comfort in that, that helps normalize it and keep us from panicking. And the leaders that I've spoken to, it has made them think about, as opposed to just thinking about one person exiting, it's almost been an awakening to looking at the entire team and trying to understand what the needs are of the entire team or how everybody's fitting together and thinking about turnover as an opportunity.
And I think that's what I hear you saying is that, "I'm going to be for forward-facing." And say, "Okay, it's hard. I miss these people that are leaving and we've had a great run. They've been there for the good times and the bad." And sometimes it's just hard to part ways with people when they've gone through different stages of your business with you. You've been in the trenches together. And so, when they leave, it's hard to say goodbye. But when you have that mindset of, "I'm going to look forward and think, "Okay, now where are we going?"
Rob:
Yeah, I think at this point in my career, I fundamentally believe that the bigger risk is that people stay too long than leave too early. And the reason is because, when somebody starts checking out and not being committed to the things we were committed to at the beginning, the rest of the team feels that, and your culture is the culmination of the individuals involved and their beliefs, and their commitment to those beliefs together.
And as factions of that, especially last year, where a bunch of people may be looking at their opportunity to leave. If a bunch of them are already there mentally, you're better off with them gone than with them there, moving that center of culture towards more of that negative.
And I really look at my role and my business partner's role as painting that future vision, and constantly making that clear, and reiterating that, so that it gives both people internally something to believe in and something to strive towards, but also then they are communicating that to the outside world. So, when new team members join us, they're stepping into a team that's functioning towards that vision and that mission.
And that's where the magic happens is, if you have somebody who is thinking the best days of the company are behind us and are living in nostalgia, then they can't look forward into the future. And that's one of the things that I've really, really started to notice the pattern on is there's been people that have left, who have talked about the past as, "Well, remember this. Remember the good times." And I don't let ever want to take those away from us because that made us who we are, but at the same time, I'm not about to let the past drive where we're going, and how alienating that talking about the past is for people who weren't there. How do we create new memories, new futures, new realities, instead of dwelling where we've been? And I think that is one of the biggest challenges with all of this.
Announcer:
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Traci:
I think this happens to a lot of companies, regardless of a Great Resignation or not. Especially companies that were startups once, and now they're not anymore. And there is a moment, there's a crossroads, and I can remember this at HGTV, where we were scrappy, and it was so fun, and you're just getting the company off the ground, and everybody's in on it. And there's just a few people, and you just have these great memories because you're building a company.
And a lot of people that were there in the beginning had the skills needed for a small company trying to get off the ground. But then when there is a growth explosion and you become a bigger company with completely different makeup and your vision starts to shift and your customers start to become bigger customers, everything changes, sometimes there are people who were with us from the beginning where it doesn't fit them anymore. It either doesn't fit their skillset anymore, or they just don't like it anymore.
And they can stay, and then they're the ones that are like, "Remember the good old days?" But not in a lovely kind of looking back way, more like a disgruntled sort of, "Ugh, why can't we get that feeling back?" Well, we can't get it back because that's what it feels like when you're getting a company off the ground. The company's off the ground, right? So some people are just made for that startup mentality, and they thrive in that, and they know that about themselves, and they'll go and seek out another opportunity. Other people will stay put out of fear or they're risk adverse, or whatever. And then they'll sit in that, like you're saying. It's hard for them to let go of yesterday.
What's been happening today is that a lot of companies have had to pivot certain ways. For your company, you used to all be in an office. Now, you're completely remote. And for some people, that can be really hard, and that's happening to a lot of companies across the nation. That some people miss the office, or some people want a different sort of situation where it's hybrid or whatever. And so, now, the company that they've been at for the last 5, 7, 10 years looks completely different to them.
Or they've shifted their vision, because maybe they're going after a different customer line, or maybe they're starting something different because the pandemic woke them up to some other opportunity. And some people don't feel comfortable with that. And so, that's all fine and good.
I think one of the things that we as leaders, and we have to always explain to our employees, is it's okay. It's okay if this doesn't feel right to you anymore. It doesn't feel comfortable or you want something different, or you excel in other ways, or you need a different mission statement to get you excited. This one isn't. That's okay. It's okay.
I'd rather you spread your wings and fly, and go somewhere else, then fester and become a virus that spreads as far as our morale is concerned. And so, when we can have that kind of attitude openly and transparently to the team, it releases a pressure valve. You feel like, "Oh, okay. Well, then maybe I can feel comfortable going to Rob and saying, "When you said it was okay to feel a rub or to feel like I'm not as comfortable here? I just want to let you know, I am feeling a rub, and I'm not sure what to do, but I want to process it through with you."
And I always tell people, if you can change your situation where you are today, stay. Stay. It is always easier for you, for the company, it's less expensive, all of that if it's just one issue that can be changed and you just need to talk it out with your leaders or with each other, whatever it is. And you can affect change in yourself and find a better spot in the company or whatever it is, then do that first. If you realize it is not a situation that's going to change, for whatever reason, again, we were just talking about maybe there's somebody that just really doesn't like the remote atmosphere. Well, that's not going to change. We've made this decision. This is the way we're going. So, if that situation's not going to change and that's your rub, then it's time to go.
But always try first to figure it out, work it out, and then pivot. Because it's a big deal, right? I don't want to promote like, "Oh, you should just be-bopping around and changing and have 18 different companies on your resume." That's not healthy. You need to get to a place where you can grow. And if you're constantly shifting jobs and switching and changing, then you're not allowing enough time for yourself to be challenged, to grow, to be elevated, all of those things.
But there are times, times for the company and times for the employee, where it's time to move on and start anew. And then for the leaders, to recalibrate and say, "Okay, what are we missing?" We talked about this last time, about the position. Do we want to keep it? Do we want to change it? And finding somebody fit to the org chart or the accountability chart that we have, that matches our vision to come.
Rob:
Yeah. The grass is greener where you water it, right?
Traci:
Exactly.
Rob:
The other thing that happens when you just jump jobs all the time, if you're not there long enough to be build trust, to get challenged, to get good, critical feedback so that you can grow and serves you in the long-term. Those are all things that happen that take a little bit of time to get out of it and whatever the opportunity is.
I think the other thing that has to be said in this conversation is, when people move on, it does impact your company, your culture, and all the things around it. But I think that one of the silver linings here is the value of unity. And unity is something that is so, so important to our companies. And it is so much, not easier, but if you are really clear about your value, your mission, your vision, what you believe, how you operate, when you onboard new people into that kind of culture, they don't know any other version of your company. They are here for that. That is what they chose. And oftentimes, they walk in with a lot of unity, and then it's up to you to make sure you maintain it. And don't crumble the illusion or anything like that. But we're talking about good, healthy companies that listen to our podcast, so they're not doing those things.
But I think that's one of the things we can get out of having to replace people, is ditching some of that baggage of who we were, and being able to get forward and getting back to a place of better unity.
Traci:
Oh yeah. I mean, there's nothing that feels greater than a new employee coming with all their happy sunshine energy and fresh perspective. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And I do think that those new employees help the people that are still there remember. Like, "Oh, right, this is a great place. Oh, you didn't have that where you came from? Oh, yes."
And there is something that it reignites a little bit in everybody. The energy can be contagious. And that's just another reason why turnover isn't always bad, is because sometimes the people who are staying need a little bit of a B12 shot and need to see things differently. And are relieved when people who maybe, like you said, cannot let go of yesterday or have some sort of issue that they just can't resolve. When they leave, the rest of the team didn't even realize that they were being held back or held down by that mentality.
And so, when it's gone, they are like, "Oh, that was Joe's mentality. I didn't realize that was holding me back, and this new person seems so happy." And all of a sudden, you see a little shift in morale. And that's why it's really important for leaders to understand what's going on, on their team. To understand the role that each person's playing, and how they could be dragging things down, and get up in their business.
Sometimes we can become so disconnected and too far away from what's happening on the front lines, that we can miss that this one person, or these two people, are really bringing 12 other people down, and that's bad. And sometimes we don't realize it until after they're gone. And that's a bummer because those people suffered for weeks, months, however long it was. And so, that's one of the things that turnover wakes us up to is, "Oh, geez, I need to be paying attention to the effect that one or two people can have on an entire team."
Rob:
Yeah. Big time. And the other thing that I think we want to say here is we're talking a lot about teams and that, and usually we're very focused on the individuals. And this is not, I don't think, out of touch with where we usually are. Because our companies, it's all about the people. But in order to run sustainable companies that are going to stand the test of time, it can't about any one person. It has to be about the team. It has to be about what we're doing together. All of the pieces should be replaceable. And I think that goes all the way up to the leader.
That's one of the things that I'm constantly thinking about, is how do I replace myself and make sure that I'm not the single point of success. And that goes down through my organization. So that, any place where we identify a really, really high functioning person who is almost acting like a deodorant and covering up lots of other smells in that part of it, but it's working because that person is there. It's like, "Okay, that's still a problem." And we can set ourselves up to have, and withstand turnover by being intentional with our roles and our structure as we go. So that we can bring new people in and still function.
Traci:
Yeah. I think that's really important is to remember that, I always say, when you have people leave, do an exit interview because that exit interview can have some nice gems in it, but you also have to understand that sometimes, especially the squeaky wheel doesn't always have their finger on the pulse of how the entire team feels. So, they might be disgruntled, and so you're going to get some skewing in some of those exit interviews. But they're still really, really, really important.
But what's even more important is, and we tell the teams that we work with all the time, is you need to be doing some mindset surveys. Really understanding what is the mindset, especially now, because there is so much being published about this time. And a lot of people talking about what happened in 2021, and people leaving and shifting jobs and what type of functional benefits are you getting, and is there better pay other places.
And so if you know your employees have all this stuff around them and they're being inundated with these types of questions, you don't want them to all of a sudden wonder, "Why am I not leaving?" And so you want to make sure you always have the finger on the pulse of what are the emotional needs? What's the mindset of my employees?" And just asking very simple questions about their stressors and motivators, and things that are going on, so that you can, and then when you get those results, obviously you'll throw away the outliers, the too high or too low off the charts, and look at the meat in the middle and figure out, "Am I in touch with what's going on with my team? Do I collectively understand what they're feeling and thinking? Have they been heard?"
Rob:
Yep. And two things to say to that. One is understand that hearing our teams is going to feel like a one-way street. Because we can understand where they are. We cannot ever assume or make the assumption that they can hear and understand where we are as owners. That there's a reason that job is lonely. That perspective is different, and it doesn't go both ways. And as much as you want it to, that just doesn't work.
The second thing that I want to say about what you said is I think that there's some upside to everyone being inundated with the news. That yes, that means that our employees are hearing news that everybody's leaving, and all of this stuff's happening, but so is everyone else's employees. And there's an opportunity to do a lot of hiring right now. Because there's a lot of good quality candidates who aren't happy for one reason or the other, or just looking for change that we can bring in.
So, I think that maybe this is my silver lining attitude coming back again, but that same conditions that are working against us can work for us as well if we stop and let it.
Traci:
Yeah. I mean, it's all perspective, it's all mindset. It's all looking for the opportunity, and weighing it up and going after it. And I think this is going to be the year for that. I think a lot of shift happened last year. I think a lot of people are settling in where they're settling in, and now's the time to start optimizing your team, optimizing your team health, really reiterating your mission and vision, and values, and making sure it all still sticks and makes sense. And really using 2022 as a time to optimize.
Rob:
Yeah. What's your takeaway today, Traci?
Traci:
I think just that. Like, I really think, if 2021 was a great resignation/shift or reshuffle, then what can we make 2022? Can we make it the great optimization of our teams?
Rob:
Yeah, that's good.
I think my big takeaway is that intentionality to do that. Is being able to know where the future is, because you get exactly one chance when you are bringing somebody on to make that first impression, and doing that and doing that well. And having them feel the values and the mission and vision throughout their interview process and throughout the hiring process, all the way up until their first day will help set and chart that direction for the rest of their time with you. And doing that work upfront, being intentional, doing that intentional design of that is just about everything.
Traci:
Yep. That's good.
Rob:
Okay.
Traci:
I like it.
Rob:
Thanks, Traci.
Traci:
Thank you.
Announcer:
The Overly Human podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey andSparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. If you like what you've heard, subscribe and tell your friends to listen. Thanks.
