Think Win-Win: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
In the fourth of Stephen Covey’s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, we shift from thinking about independence to interdependence to achieve success. Traci and Rob discuss thinking about win-win and how you can achieve this through forming trusting relationships and having a common understanding of expectations.
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Traci:
Hey Rob. Today's going to be a big episode for us because we're making a big shift. We're shifting from private victory to public victory. From independence to interdependence.
So we started with the first three habits, which was private victory and all about building true independence. So being proactive and having a personal vision, beginning with the end in mind, and putting first things first. And now, if we have built a real foundation on the true independence habits and have committed to those, then we're ready to actually shift to public victory and inner dependence.
Rob:
That sounds exciting. Yeah.
Traci:
It is.
Rob:
It is. And I think that the whole premise of all this, is that we have to set our intention and be proactive and start with our end in mind and have our own purpose defined, before we can be capable and be ready to have a healthy intra-dependent relationship. Right? Know who ourselves are first, be able to set ourselves up so that we can be good partners in intra-dependent relationships.
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Traci:
Yeah. I mean, if we don't have the right perspective and we're not fully rooted in the long-term goal and journey for ourselves, then it's really hard to even the habit we're going to talk about today, think win-win. I mean, this is jumping right into the fire. Right? We're shifting to how we interact with others, to form trusting relationships with healthy, emotional bank accounts.
I mean, we need to be fully confident in who we are, but not prideful. It's a very humble approach that he talks about. And he kicks off this habit, by talking about character. That we really can't have trusting, real true, positive interactions with each other, unless we have three key character traits and we're rooted in those character traits. And he outlines those as integrity, maturity, and abundance mindset. And I really think that was gold. Before you can even think about what win-win means, you have to have character.
Rob:
Yeah. You have to know who you are. And you have to not think we're all playing a zero-sum game all the time. And that's such a huge thing. Right? And when we talk about, even like industry, several people are my friends that were in the same industry, I guess we're technically competitors. But I've never liked that word. They're peers. Right? Because I fundamentally believe there's a lot of work out there, plenty of work for everyone and that we can all succeed together.
I mean, that's one of the reasons why you and I became friends and we actually started this podcast. Right? Most of the people who listen to this, would technically be either your or I's competitors, but they're really peers. Right? We think that the rising tide can lift all boats. And I think that's a huge part of this.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think one of my favorite parts actually in the entire book, is this chapter when he talks about abundance mindset. And we've talked about it before. It's one of the character traits he talks about. And it's the belief that there is more than enough for everyone. Right? That I can win and so can you. And I think that's what you're talking about.
And it's rooted in this belief that we're all equal. And no one needs to be inferior or superior. That we all can view each other as humans—as we talk about all the time—and have this courage to sit in our values and to believe what we want to believe and to go after what we're passionate about, but also have this consideration for other people. And that takes a lot of humility and trust and letting go of probably the meritocracy that we've been taught entire life. Right? That there's only one winner. And you got to get an A+ all the time and everything's a competition.
And so at this age, as business owners and leaders of companies, it's hard to kind of shift that mentality, to trust that we can help each other, that we can be supportive of each other, even our biggest competitors. And have this mentality that there's enough for everyone.
There's enough success out there for you and there's enough success out there for me. Because the scarcity mentality, which is the opposite, is what makes the world cutthroat. Right? Where everybody starts to get ... Is out for themselves because they feel like there's not enough. There's just not enough. And I've got to be the winner and I've got to get there first.
Rob:
And not even just with the people on the outside of our organizations, this has a huge impact on the inside too. If we set up our systems and process to reward certain behavior, people will optimize for that reward. And if you set it up where there is ranking systems and people feel like they have to beat out their peers, then you've set out those internal systems, encourage competition and not collaboration.
And I think that's hugely impactful, especially in the client work that we do, where it's trying to get ... You have to have people working together. Right? Otherwise, you're limited by one person's ability to do that project, that effort, that whatever. What I want, is to take a group of people who are all really smart and allow them to collaborate together and they get the best of all of their brains on an idea.
And that only can happen, if we can set up our systems and process and think about things from an abundance mindset and not set up rewards, or other systems that be like, “Oh, one of you will come out and be the winner here.”
Traci:
Yeah. And I think that's key because I can remember early in my career, being on a sales team. And the manager had it set up that we were competitors against each other. And every week when we came to the weekly meeting, there were our rankings. And we had to talk about the rankings and go over the rankings. And so my colleagues and I were competitors and treated each other as such.
And when I got promoted, I got rid of that entire system. And I remember it being a little bit of a debate with my boss because she was worried that there wouldn't be incentive for people to go out and get the money and go after the deal. And I just believed wholeheartedly, even at age 30, that teamwork and collaborating and sharing each other's ideas, was going to be more successful than this kind of cutthroat hiding behind closed doors, whispering, competitive atmosphere, which was hardly comfortable. And we ended up being very successful.
So you can achieve success probably with either mentality. But we're talking about, and our podcast always kind of rests in, what's going to be the most joyful experience as a human being? What's going to feel most significant and rewarding? And it is to have more of this win-win mentality, to have this abundance mentality, where you don't feel like you're always looking over your shoulder, because you can win financially, but it's a pretty stressful win.
This is a different type of mindset that we're talking about, when we enter into the workplace. And it's not just with our teammates. I mean, we can set up as business owners and leaders, we can make sure our team is thinking this way with each other, but we should also set up that mentality with our clients. Because often, when we come in to help a ... Come alongside an agency, we see that they think of their clients as an enemy, or a competitor, or we have to win and they have to lose, or we need to make this is all about profit. And that typically, does not make for a enjoyable project, or an enjoyable experience either.
Rob:
No. I think you hit on something really important there, that I think about a lot. And I see this in the clients we work with. And the prospects we're talking to is ... The web has been around for a long time now. And most companies, they're not doing their first web project anymore. Which means that if they're looking for a new person to work with, a new vendor, new studio, that they've been hurt and they've been burned by somebody.
And I can't tell you how much time that it feels like, that I spend talking to potential customers, just reminding them that we think about things as a partnership. That we think about things as mutually edifying relationships. We want to work with you. We want to come alongside you. Because they've been trained by the people they used to work with, that there's a winner and a loser.
And those habits and those mindsets take time to change. Because the big theme throughout this whole section of the book, is something I've started referring to as human-first. Right? It's just like in order to get to win-win, you have to put the humans first and think about the relationship. And if the relationship exists and you've made deposits into that relationship and you've maintained it and all of those pieces, then you have to consider the humans involved and try to find those solutions, where there's mutually edifying relationship. Right?
And I think that it's not that hard to do if we just flip our mindset. Right? Are the people you're working with, your clients, they want what you've got and you hope, I hope anyway, that they value what we're building, more than they're paying for it, so that it is worth them to pay for it.
And if that balance exists, then everybody's winning. They're getting what they want for a dollar value that I'm charged and can make margins on and can run my business with and treat my people well and all of those things. And they can turn around and leverage that with their pieces, to create the same thing for them down the line. And I think that that's ... I hate the negotiations you get into, that somebody's trying to win. It has to be something that works. And it's a crazy game.
And we could get in and talk about all the different things that happen with legal departments and negotiation and procurement and all that stuff, where you get the no highway option. Right? Like this is it’s our way or no highway option. And it's like, come on. This is just crazy. There has to be some place we meet in the middle if we're going to be partners.
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As the vice president of Sparkbox, Rob Harr is responsible for operations and financials, but he is really in the business of making a happy, healthy, and well-adjusted team, while meeting company goals. Follow him on Twitter @robertHarr to find out where he'll be speaking next.
Traci:
Right. And I think the whole idea of the emotional bank account in this chapter is really what's key in what you're talking about. Because if we have trust, I mean, the emotional bank account, we should probably define, is the metaphor that he uses that describes the amount of trust that's been built up in the relationship. And if you have a, it's just like a financial bank account. If you have a hefty account, then when you're talking about win-win and you're talking about situations and you come up against bumps in the road, that you are able to work those out because there's trust there. Right?
And you build up that account with people through kindness and honesty and keeping your commitments. And so when that account gets low, whether it's internally on our teams, or whether it's between our client and a company, if the trust erodes and something happens and that bank account depletes, it's really hard to get that mentality back on track, where it's like, “Oh no, but I want you to win and me to win.” Well, if I don't trust you, I don't believe what you're saying. I believe that you want me to lose and you to win.
And so your words become just words. There's no meaning behind them. Right? And so this whole mentality of win-win, it has to be built on a foundation. I have to trust you and you have to trust me as a teammate or as a client. And then we can enter into a healthy negotiation.
And I know in some cases, these are people who are just meeting each other. And so that's why people have references and case studies and things where you're kind of building your little bits of trust based on what they've heard from other people. But you can build trust pretty quickly. And definitely with teams and with clients through your interactions, through being true to your words, through being true to the deal.
Rob:
Yeah. But I think that the things that are all part of this, is that trust-building effort takes intention. And it has to be something that's invested in over time. And you have to put intentional deposits into that emotional bank account with people. And a lot of times what you see, or at least what I see, is people wanting to withdraw first and then repay later. And it doesn't work that way.
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
Right?
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
There is all these lagging indicators that exist about building relationships and the time it takes. And the humaning that has to go into those relationships. And we try to do that in all kinds of different ways with our employees, with our clients. There is, especially in this remote world where we can't be in person as much as we used to, or as some of us extroverts like. Right? That we have to find other ways to build that trust, to do that humaning so that there is enough of a balance to make win-win kinds of things later.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think some of the key tips and tricks for people to remember is things like empathy and understanding where the other person is coming from. And kind of mirroring back listening more than speaking. We talk about that a lot. It's hard, especially if you're an extrovert. It's hard because you're selling yourself, or you're trying to make sure the position's clear. But we really need to understand the other person on our team that we're working with, understand our client fully, keep our commitments and have really clear expectations from each other.
I expect this from you. Say it. Not to be scared of outlining things, because sometimes we shy away and think they'll just work themselves out, or we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. And that's where things really start to go awry. And let's not be fearful. Let's really outline what the expectations are and then hold each other accountable. And that really builds a great deal of trust and fills that emotional bank account.
Rob:
It totally does. And that's one of the key things I think we can talk about with the expectations, is speaking them loud. Right? Is repeating back. “This is what I heard you say, do I have it right?” And that feels so redundant because we assume we know, but I can't tell you how many times I've been in meetings, or conversations and done that. And someone said, "Well actually no."
And then we talk about it and we get down to it that we're each bringing different baggage to that conversation and making assumptions. And if we just let it go, we can agree and agree on completely different things that will break down trust because we'll both feel like the other didn't deliver on what they said they would do.
Traci:
And that's how we know if we have a win-win, is making an agreement, is the framework for that. Right? If we're going to enter into this relationship, or this project, or this contract, what are the desired results? Let's be very clear. What are the guidelines? What resources are we going to use? Who's accountable for what? And when are we going to meet up to hold each other accountable to go over? Did we meet these expectations? Are we operating within the guidelines? And what are the consequences if people don't operate at that framework?
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Traci:
And I think for leaders, that's a big one too, is are we holding people accountable to the parameters we've set, or to the values that we hold? And making sure we get after those people and say, "No, it's time to pivot back into the agreement that we have set forth." And I think that's really important. So people stick to the win-win mentality. They feel like there's safety in it. That it's not scary.
Rob:
Yeah. Well the whole thing that you just described, desired results, guidelines, resources, accountability, and consequences to finding those, is being explicit so that there is no misunderstanding. And the biggest way to build trust is for common understanding and then things to happen on that common understanding. Right? That's the key to all of it. Right?
And that's simplified, we can break it down a lot of different ways. And it's so interesting that so many of these conversations you and I have, come back to this basic idea of trust. And that's because it is the bottom of the pyramid, of how everything else that humans need to be able to successfully work together and collaborate builds upon. And win-win agreements and win-win kind of mentality is no different.
Traci:
Yeah. And I think that's why he starts with character and then he goes into relationships. And before he ever gets to framework, is because is that honesty, that trust. And I think making it clear to our teams that there's no room for dishonesty, there's no covering up, or blame game, or trying to shift the folk because something went awry. I think that really erodes the possibility of achieving this habit.
And I think internally, when I see people on teams own up and be like, oh my gosh, that was totally my fault, my bad. I'm going to make a good. You're in that person and admiration, goes through the roof. Yet, it's not the natural thing to do. People tend more often, to be like, I don't know. I don't think you were clear with ... They start to make excuses and they start to shift and they get really nervous.
And I think the same with clients too. We get really worried, oh my gosh, if we admit a mistake to a client, or we say, "Oh my gosh, that was my bad. Let me ... That we're going to lose the account, or that they're ... And that tends also not to be the case. The trust goes up. They're like, oh, okay. They're going to admit if something behind the scenes goes wrong. That makes me sleep better at night.
And the sooner we can get our teams to understand that, the more we're going to see this type of behavior, where people own up, they hold each other accountable. We all are quick to forgive and help rectify and we move forward. And we can have more of these kind of WinWin teamwork and client relationships.
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, so much of this comes back to that idea of trust. Right? Can't get any distance from that. And the other thing like you said, I like what you said about clients. Right? It's always the cover-up that gets you in trouble in so many different contexts. Right? So there've been so many times where we've been working with a client long-term. And you know what? If we've never had to have a hard conversation, or been through something tough together, I actually worry about what the foundation the relationship is built on.
I look, or those moments to help be like oh, this could be the moment where we can build trust, where we can both come to the table and figure out that we're made of the same stuff and we want to continue working together. Right? Those are defining moments. I can think of so many people in my life, who I know have my back no matter what, because of what we've been through together. Right?
And I think the vulnerability we had to show each other and to be there, those are moments that have such large deposits in those accounts, that it's just always going to be there. And I think that running towards those opportunities, rather than away from them, is the mentality I think we should all have, when dealing with other people that we want to have that relationship with.
Traci:
Yeah, yeah. And I think this whole idea of a principled approach versus a positional approach, instead of trying to mark your position, or take a position to see the problem from other points of view, to identify key issues and concerns and determine results that would be acceptable. All these ideas are, just again, just more points to a framework, to help us get to the right place.
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Traci:
One of the things I think that's really interesting about the whole idea of like I can win and so can you, is that it's a belief like I said in the beginning, that we're all equal. And what's interesting, is that it's a belief. It's not this empirical thing. We have to believe in that, have faith in that, have a mentality about that, that we're all equal in order for this to work.
And I think we see it in greater society today, that that's not tending to be this natural position for people, to believe that we're all equal and believe that we all have the right to the same types of things. And that I'm better than you and...But that happens. And it happens from a very young age. And until we're able, until we're taught, or we come to a new belief that we're all equal, it's really hard to achieve this sort of win-win mentality. It's really hard to see another person for who they are and want the best for them.
And there's a book called, is it called High Performing Teams? I don't know if I'm going to get that right. But the whole philosophy, is that the highest level of the highest performing team, shows one trait above all. And that is that they care for each other's success. And I think that's really interesting because it's not that they just care for the success of the team, but that they individually care for the other people on the team's success.
And man, when you see that in a team, like I want John to succeed, or I want Sally to succeed, just as much as I want to succeed, that's not a natural state that we see. And when you do see it, you're like, wow. And those teams shine.
Rob:
Yeah. And I think it's sad that it's not more natural because you're right. We're taught all these win-loss, win versus loser systems growing up. And it's undoing that. And re-looking at things as a group of humans that are collaborating together, for some greater good. Some mission, some vision, some core values, some partnership, whatever the case may be. There's a higher thing that we're pursuing together, because we've committed to that, to each other.
And with that, comes the whole piece of caring for each other. And I think that's the single most important thing we can instill in our teams, is how do I get you to be invested in your peers full stop? Right? How does that happen?
Traci:
I think that it's built on respect basically. Because when it comes back to the win-win versus the other options, which he outlines, which is win-lose, or lose-win, or lose-lose. What we're talking about here, is not just like the sappy “Oh, we're all winners, everybody get a blue ribbon.” And that can tend to end up being more of a lose-lose situation. I'm losing out, you're losing out, but we're not going to be confrontational, or have healthy conflict. We're just going to just brush it all under the carpet and get through it.
That's a lose-lose situation. And I think what you're describing, is more of this respect for each other. I have a solid, healthy respect for myself, from my team. And you have a solid, healthy respect for yourself and your team. And then we can enter in. That's why he starts with this sort of private victories. Right? It's this feeling of healthy respect for each other.
And he even says, if you can achieve win-win, if we know this isn't going to work, that we don't force a deal. Because if we force a deal, then there's going to be a loser. But if we know this isn't going to work out, we can say, "Okay, maybe let's just table this. Or maybe this just isn't going to work right now." And to preserve our relationship, we're not going to move forward.
And I thought that was a really good point towards the end of the chapter. To say, “We're not going into this, wanting to force on anybody. We want to make sure that everybody's healthy, respected and cares for each other's success. And if we can't reach that, that's okay.”
Rob:
That's okay. Maybe it's not the right time, season for this and all of that. And I think that the other part of all this, when dealing with humans is, the reason we start with these private things, is because unless we are able to clearly articulate what we want and what we believe, we can't even represent what win-win means to us. And what a bummer that is. I was having a conversation with somebody a couple weeks ago. And they were saying, "Well, this, that, and this."
And I finally looked at them and I said, "Listen, I think your bigger challenge here, isn't that you can't get what you want, is I have yet to hear you clearly articulate what you're after." And I said, "I don't think that you've got it figured out yet. And for me to help you get that, I can't be that for you. You have to be able to come to the table. Let's talk about some ways, some of those private victories that you can have, to figure those pieces out. Because if you can clearly articulate that, I want to be in a place to help you achieve those things."
And I think that that's a huge section of this, is knowing myself and knowing what you're winning is.
Traci:
Yeah. That's true. And it's all in that clarity and that understanding. I think it's key. I think it's key. And that's why there's a method, or a process to how we achieve win-win. And there's frameworks and pieces to it. And I think that's kind of the beauty of it.
Rob:
Yeah. All right. What are your takeaways this week, Traci?
Traci:
Well, my takeaways, my to-dos, I think for this one, I would encourage leaders who are listening to this, to actually make this an agenda point on their next team meeting. Is to literally explain this concept and to say that this is what our team is about internally and externally. And really outline the framework.
Because this isn't something that comes natural. And I think as soon as people understand that it has to be taught, that this isn't just something that's naturally going to happen, that it has to be discussion, it has to be clear and open and honest with your team, the sooner you're going to get to an environment like this.
Rob:
Yeah. I think for me, it goes back to that previous point of the big takeaway this week is understanding what you want and what you need out of situations so that you can clearly articulate to somebody you're working with, somebody you're negotiating with, where you are at and the why behind it. Because you can't possibly get to a win-win place, unless both parties are willing to show up and talk about what they need out of it, or what they would define as winning for that.
And it's that whole know yourself thing. Right? What are you looking for? What do you need? You can't expect ... Back to the proactive thing. You can't expect anyone else to read your mind, if you can't articulate what you're looking for.
Traci:
Good stuff.
Rob:
Yeah.
Traci:
Thank you.
Rob:
Thanks, Traci.
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The Overly Human podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. If you like what you've heard, subscribe and tell your friends to listen. Thanks.
