Orchestrating Business Changes with Nancy Lyons
In this special episode, we will be talking with Nancy Lyons, author of “Work Like a Boss” and CEO of Clockwork. Let’s discuss how making company-wide changes take time (in this case many years) and how the impact of these changes altered the entire present and future of Clockwork.
This episode is brought to you by the Bureau of Digital. Learn more at bureauofdigital.com.
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Rob:
So we've got a real treat for you today. A longtime friend of mine and actually one of my mentors, Nancy Lyons, is going to be here with us today, author of “Work Like a Boss” and one of the best sublines ever in a book. It's "A Kick-In-The-Pants Guide to Finding (and Using) Your Power at Work".
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human Podcast where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it's personal too.
Rob:
Today we're going to be talking with Nancy about kind of her journey through her company Clockwork, and going from being involved in the business every day to helping replace herself a little bit and taking that step back.
So good morning, Traci. How are you?
Traci:
I'm good. I'm super excited. I love myself some Nancy Lyons.
Rob:
Long time fan, first-time caller. Hey Nancy.
Nancy:
Hi you guys. How are you?
Rob:
Doing really well. For those that don't know who you are, do you have a quick introduction you can give that's...
Nancy:
No, but I have a soliloquy I can deliver. So I am a founder and a CEO of a digital shop based in Minneapolis, but we've got folks all over, as most shops do these days. The company is Clockwork. We also have a little studio that we just launched late last year called Tempo, and it's for startup and early-stage organizations that need maybe low-code, no-code solutions. And then I'm also an author, a speaker, and a gadfly.
Rob:
There we go.
Okay. So take me back to the beginning a little bit with Clockwork and your kind of journey from just probably you and a couple of people through the place where you're running an organization of several people, just a little bit.
Nancy:
Well, Clockwork wasn't our first foray into the digital space. We've actually been doing this for a really long time. I met my business partners in 1995, and they had come off of a stint working for Prince. So everybody that I worked with in the early days were musicians, and they worked with Prince at Warner Brothers.
And Michael was a musician, a composer. He is a sound engineer and a producer, and he's got a great discography. And he actually started exploring internet technology on behalf of Prince. And then Chuck, who's another business partner, he was a graphic designer who was a creative director for Warner Brothers and worked on Paisley Park stuff.
So they actually started all of this when they were embedded in Paisley Park, and they were building stuff for Prince and that didn't work out. And there's a long story there that we can save for another podcast, but they took the technology that they had started to build, they were going to launch a bulletin board service. So that's how long ago this was, a social web space for fans of Prince, they were going to call it the Dawn. And Chuck had created the interface and it was beautiful.
And so they took that technology, launched their own BBS, created a social space for artists and musicians. It grew to about 8,000 people. I stumbled upon it, became a member, went to a party, met these guys, saw them at a conference. And I was doing marketing video production at the time, when I decided I was kind of done with that and wanted to shift—I was also finishing school and a bunch of other stuff—I remembered them and sent them a note with my resume and didn't hear from them.
And a little while later, I sent them another one and said, "If I don't hear from you, I'm going to have to stalk you." And then I heard from them pretty immediately. And then we started working together. And the company that they started from the BBS, the BBS was called Bitstream Underground. They started a company called Bitstream Underground. We started offering internet services. So it became more than a BBS. It was a dial-up internet service provider, if you can handle that.
And then they built their first websites in 1995, and I joined, and I mean, I'm sure we all at least have some memory of that period of time. There was no language, there was no standard set of services, there was no guidebook, there was no manual, there were no college graduates coming out with a sense of how to do it. So we were kind of making things up. So we made up the menu of services, we made up the offering,
And eventually they included me as a partner in the business and made me President. And we grew to be one of the premier internet service providers for this region. And our first client in the webspace was BASF. And we built stuff for healthcare and M&M Mars and HJ Hines. And then we sold that company at the end of 2001. And we had a really kind of rough experience with acquisition. We left because it was just a values misalignment, and we kind of walked out the door, and we often joke about how we didn't do a startup, we did a start over. And we walked out the door, and right after the holiday season in 2002, we started Clockwork.
So we've been around for over 20 years and we learned from a lot of mistakes and we learned from our counterparts in the space that came up around us. And now my partner Mike is off and he owns a brewery and he is opening a new location in Canterbury Downs. And Chuck and I are in the business. I'm on it. He's in it. And it's been a glorious opportunity for us to grow it.
Rob:
That's awesome. So today, but go back to that time and 2001, when you all got started with Clockwork, how was the decision made that you were going to be the President, be in charge?
Nancy:
Well, it's interesting because if you hear Chuck and Mike tell the story, they would say that in the context of Bitstream, we hired a consultant to help us sell the business. And prior to that—and this was because all the big telcos were coming in and monopolizing the internet access space, and so we knew we couldn't compete there much longer, and we kind of had to sell the network. And so we brought in this consultant and they believed that they needed to hire out for a president. And after being embedded with us for a period of time, he was like, "Your boss is right here. I'm not sure if you're aware."
And I started out there as I did sales and customer service and tech support and project management. And so I had sort of moved through all sorts of aspects of the business and was just sort of fixing things or creating process around things where there wasn't any. So he kind of said there's your boss right there.
So as we moved into starting Clockwork, it was just a foregone conclusion. It was just done. It was already sort of in space. Although Michael in this region was a superstar for being sort of early in the internet space, and he was on all the covers of magazines in this region and he also kinda looked like a rockstar. I remember sitting in meetings and having women do double takes, and I was really disgusted. And so he had this charisma and this star quality that people were attracted to. So I always say to him, we needed him.
And this is the thing that still bugs me to this day, is our members agreement. When I get taxes, when I get my K1s, the document when they talk about the members of this company, the chief manager is Michael Kapelman, and he hasn't been involved in probably, I don't know, 15 years. So I mean, he is on our board, of course, but he hasn't been in the business.
So it was just something that we knew would be true. And I have to give them a lot of credit because this was a long time ago, and the internet was sort of a rockstar space when we were first involved in it. And they are the most just lovely, kind, generous, progressive dudes who were always...There was just not an argument about it. We were all really close, and they just saw in me stuff that maybe I didn't even see in myself and were willing to make space for that. And so I often say my career wouldn't really exist if I hadn't met those guys.
Rob:
Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, it's so funny. It's tax season now, and it's always a reminder when I get that banker's box full of all of our taxes and all the states, and as you go through signing things, it's like a reminder of 15 years of decisions that have been made and done that you've almost forgot about or almost just glossed over. It's like, “Oh, that's right. We were this structure when we opened in this state.”
Nancy:
Right. Yeah. Tax season's really fun that way.
Traci:
I think it's amazing too, to just hear the trajectory of your career across the trajectory of the internet because for some of us who started, I remember I was in television the whole time in '94 and '95 when you were talking about that. And then of course when the internet came along and just sort of the transition, crossing over into the 2000s.
And it's not only that you were just building a business, but you were building a business in an industry that was in its infancy and then taking it all the way to today. It is so fascinating to just sit back and consider all that you saw, how many times you probably had to pivot, evolve, the types of people you had to hire, who was able to grow with you, who wasn't. When you're dealing with a new medium like that, there's some people that can take you so far, but then they can't and you have to transition and bring different people in.
And so I mean, you probably could write about 10 books on just that journey alone, and now you sit at the crossroads of seeing what has been built. Do you look back across your career and especially the life of Clockwork up to this point, and do you ever marvel at it all? I mean, how does it feel exhausting when you look back? Does it feel like, wow, I had the best of those times and now it's even more complicated? Does it still excite you? What do you think when you look back as you tell the story of your trajectory?
Nancy:
Yeah, I think the possibility in the industry still excites me. Where we're going and what's on the horizon excites me, getting people excited and speaking to how all of this works in layman's terms and getting people to recognize their place in it and the possibility for them, that excites me.
The management of people and the day-to-day does not excite me anymore. And so I would say that that's a big reason for some of the shifts in the business that we've experienced as of late or orchestrated as of late. It didn't happen to us. We made it happen.
I also think one of the reasons why we are 20-plus years old and we haven't sold yet is we've sold a company before and we know what happens culturally. If in the process of due diligence and negotiations, everybody puts their best foot forward and we tap dance for each other, what happens on the other side of a deal is very different from anything you can ever anticipate. And so keeping it privately held, not including other owners, not taking outside cash, all of that is pretty deliberate.
But the other thing that is also deliberate is, and I know that both of you will know what I'm talking about when I say this. We rode those waves and made choices that are different than what potential acquirers would want us to make. So we made choices that deliberately devalued our organization as far as the outside world would see, and we did that deliberately.
We've only done layoffs once in any sort of meaningful, terrible way, and technically twice over 20 years time. And both of them were really, really difficult. In the crash of 2007–2008, we just all took pay cuts and rode it. But during the pandemic, we made really deliberate choices to reinvest in the business and come out the other side in a really strategic way and really head for the business that we want no matter what, just head for it. And that has paid up.
So a lot of the choices that we've made have led to this moment, and I'm proud of the choices that we made. I don't have a lot of regret. I'll tell you, the only regret that I have is almost impossible to extricate from what I just shared from you. It's like it's not possible for me to think about any other way to do it, but I still sometimes regret that I wasn't more selfish because now I'm old and I'm looking at retirement in a way that I never did before. And I wish we would have been less Gen X and more capitalist ogres when it came to taking care of ourselves. We probably didn't do the best job of that.
I mean, listen, I live a great life and it's all been enabled by this little shop of ours, and I do what I want and I have a lot to be thankful for, and we're able to support causes that we care about and do some phenomenal things. So the regret is small, but as a woman in business and as the, I won't say primary breadwinner because my spouse also works, but as the person who probably sacrifices the most in terms of family time and personal time, I wish I would've thought differently about myself. And that's probably advice that I'll give women for the rest of my life.
Rob:
Yeah, I mean, that's such a human take. It's so easy to look back at things and say, “No, I held the things I believe and did the things I believe and walked that path” and still look at it and say, “hey, if I would've gone this other route, I might be in a better position, I might be have done different things.” And I think that recognizing that both those things are true at the same time and aren't a contradiction is like wisdom.
Nancy:
Yeah, maybe so.
Traci:
It's so funny that you say that Nancy, too, because I was just having this conversation a couple of weeks ago, and I was saying when I was hot and heavy in corporate America and flying all over the place, I look back now and I say that too was a regret of mine.
For some reason, I felt like I had to keep over-indexing all the time and that I did not give myself sort of the grace or space that looking back now, I totally could have, I totally could have and everything would've been okay. But there is that sort of being a female business leader where you just feel like you constantly have to over-index, and it's not really until you get to the other side that you realize I could have given myself a little more space. I think those are really, really, really powerful words that need to be repeated often because they're wise and it's true. And taking care of ourselves is not a selfish thing. It's really not.
Nancy:
It's totally true. And I think women are trained to be mothers and caregivers and nurturers, and that's even true in business. And I was also sort of this Gen X, I sort of feel like my values are entirely entrenched in that generational value of non-conformists and change makers but doing it quietly and selflessly. Let's acknowledge I am not quiet, but it was always about caring for everybody, and I forgot myself in that equation.
Traci:
Hi, overly human friends. It's Traci, and if you haven't heard, I wrote a book. It's called “What If There's More: Finding Significance Beyond Success” and it's out right now. If you're thinking about a career pivot, wanting to follow your dream or just want to fall back in love with what you do, then I think this book is for you. And if you like what you read, please feel free to head on over and leave me a review. You can learn moreat tracischubertbarrett.com and you can find “What If There's More” wherever you buy books. Thanks.
Rob:
That's really interesting. So you alluded to it a few minutes ago, but let's go back to it real quick. You said the changes we're currently making or orchestrating, I really like that word, orchestrating implies intention behind it. Talk a little bit about just what those changes are so that we can catch everybody else up.
Nancy:
Sure. Well, I think that Clockwork was a bootstrapped organization as most of our companies are, and we never took outside funding. And the business that we're in is not predictable. As hard as we try to make it predictable, and as much as we all talk a good game about the forecasting, and we use the tools and we subscribe, I've now done this for 20, how long has it been? How long is it? 28 years? Is that what I just said? Well, I was seven when I began as you know. Bit of an idiot savant. But I have seen this business ebb and flow.
When our last company was acquired. I remember sitting in rooms with other shops that had been acquired by this particular organization and listening to the other business leaders, which by the way, were all men. I was the only woman in that room during business reviews. And I would listen to them fib about their forecasting in order to make this traditional business that we had just been assumed by, in order to make those leaders happy with the conversations we were having.
Whereas I was telling the truth, and they looked at me like I was an idiot, and I was kind of talking about the process. And they were used to selling widgets, if you will. They were used to selling things that had a schedule. They understood the sales cycle from the schedule. And I was used to selling things that people didn't understand. And when they don't understand it, the rug can come out from under it real quick or don't value, and when they don't value it, the funding can disappear really quick. And so this is not a new issue.
And when the pandemic started, we got very slow. We had some people pull back, and we had a couple of really good years. We had a great cash reserve, and that's what saved us. And I was super grateful for that. And so we were able to use the time to go down to four-day work weeks and let people rest, and we knew we were going to be slow. So we worked on internal processes and had some really lengthy conversations.
And right around at the very beginning of the pandemic, our COO who had been with us for many, many years left, and I had to rethink the leadership team and rethink my role in the business and really do some self-reflection to determine if I could be effective as that person on the ground anymore.
And so I had the beginnings of a really solid leadership team, and Jenny Holman was certainly on that leadership team as the VP, SVP of client success. And so she worked on the delivery side really closely with the teams and is a phenomenal human being all the way around. And I'm a big believer that you want to surround yourself with people that are better than you, but also that compliment you. And for all of my fly by the seat of the pants appearance, I am a planful person, but I sometimes am harried and rushed and improvisational, and Jenny is none of those things. And so I think in the ways that she compliments me, it just started to make sense.
Here's the other thing. When we had that other COO in place, Jenny was a frustrated leader because I think she didn't see a place for herself. So there was a few things colliding if I'm being absolutely honest. And I think for an audience like yours, that's critical. If I'm being really honest, I had to examine how I was going to keep Jenny and keep Jenny happy, and I had to really explore how that could happen sooner over later. So I was feeling pressure to put her in a position where it was clear that I was willing to continue to invest in her and in how I saw the leadership team and the broader teams.
But in addition to that, and this is something that I haven't really been vocal about in the bureau channels, but we invested in sales in a way that I never have before. I took that cash reserve. We now have the biggest sales team I have ever had in 28 years. There was a period there when I was the sole salesperson for probably 11 years of Clockwork's life, I was it. And I really started to feel the pressure. And I know Jenny has witnessed those pressure-filled moments. I used to say when we were going through EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system, we talked a lot about accountability. And I would say in those quarterly meetings, what does that mean? What does it actually mean? Because when we have crappy years, the org chart is great, and as the visionary, I'm sitting up there doing my thing, and you guys are all taking care of business until stuff goes south.
And then what I feel about that org chart, I remember saying this, and I remember watching Jenny's face actually in the quarterly meeting that we had. I'm like, "You take that org chart, that top-down org chart where I'm sitting up here floating around a princess and stuff goes south, and you can just turn it around and put the point of it in the center of my head, and it bears into me like a curse." It is painful and real because when stuff goes south, I've got to have the most hustle. It's on me. None of these people are sharing in that accountability. And it was a huge frustration of mine, and I used to vocalize it because EOS does...I mean, we've got so many great tools and systems and it's a beautiful thing, but it never really got to the answer of, so what happens?
Will we hold these people accountable? Do we fire them? Well, if you're an old Gen Xer who doesn't...Now, don't get me wrong. I fire people, but if you're an old Gen Xer, you've got to give them all the chances and talk and there's no real accountability inside of a lot of organizations because HR gets in the way, policy gets in the way, expectations, communication, all these things get in the way of accountability. So that was a big one for me. I wanted to create an accountable organization. I wanted to have a leadership team that understood that particular struggle.
And if you would've asked us before the pandemic in 2017, I remember telling my staff at a staff meeting, "We need to be more consultative because in order to show up and compete with the Accentures and the Deloittes and all these folks that we're seeing ourselves up against, we need to be able to do the consulting, the strategy, and the delivery." And I remember looking at the entire staff and thinking some of them were having seizures. What do you mean by consulting? And you know what it's like to manage people. There's the two in the front who are, like “Yeah, consulting.” And the rest are having their own beautiful reactions. And it can be anything from sheer panic to confusion to the analyzers are writing down their 427 questions that they need to ask to clarify what you mean by consulting.
But we started heading in that direction. We made really deliberate choices to hire very seasoned humans—we pulled a woman from Slalom to lead our change practice, and we started a change practice very deliberately because what we realized is that when our solutions were failing, it was because we weren't taking the people with us. We were delivering the technology and going, “Good luck.” And then the client would get frustrated because they didn't have the teams to manage the change that had been implied all along, but had never been planned for. So we built a change practice, we expanded our sales team. I hired something that I've experimented with in the past, but I hired a chief marketing officer who actually is now our chief growth officer. And we got real serious about marketing. We got real serious about sales planning. We expanded that team. We got really serious about that leadership team. And then it just was really clear that it was time for Jenny to be president.
And the cool part about all of that, it sounds like all these sort of disparate parts, is now in collaboration with the growth officer. That's Melanie Shirley and she's phenomenal. She actually came from one of, well, for many of our clients, I've known her for probably the entire 20 years. And she was the person who helped one of our clients' IBOBs go from startup to acquisition by really creating their direct-to-consumer strategy. And we built that for them. And so I watched her kind of do that. So we made these very deliberate moves, and then Jenny took the wheel. And now I would say the moment of time that we're in is really around the tension of, well, what are you doing? Well, what am I doing? What are you doing? Well, hey, how come nobody asked me?
A lot of it is going to be my ego, but I think there's egos involved. I'm not going to say that Jenny Holman has no ego, and I know that she wants to make my life easier, and in making my life easier, my ego gets inflamed. Why hasn't anybody brought that up with me? But we'll deal with it, we're going to deal with it. We're learning how to talk to each other. And what I will say to you is that in a year when I know so many of my partner organizations are struggling, we are about to have our biggest year ever. Ever.
Rob:
That's great. Congrats.
Nancy:
Thanks. And I don't like to say that out loud because I feel like, “Oh, God….” And it's weird. It's weird because I've seen other organizations definitely in different places when we were at our lowest. So I know that it ebbs and flows for all of us. But I will say that, and I know you can both relate to this, the organization probably feels like this is all luck. They're seeing this stuff happen, and it's lucky, but it literally took us six years to put in place the infrastructure we needed to, because now they're all consultants and nobody bats an eye, and they don't remember when they were having seizures in the front row of the staff meeting.
Rob:
I hate the idea of luck. I don't believe in it. I believe the things that are done with intention, with skill are the desired outcome.
Traci:
And with patience, because taking six years, I mean, there is such a lesson in there, that thing, Rome wasn't built in a day. And change takes time if done well, and just your whole recounting of that story was just so riddled with intention. Just being very intentional, keeping your eye on the ball, being very patient and deliberate, and also risk. You took a lot of risk taking your money.
Nancy:
We spent that cash reserve down, and that was terrifying. And we also acquired a book of business from a shop that was acquired on my client's side. So these financial decisions that I made in the middle of crisis. When you say risk, I want to be real clear, I was terrified. And there were some decisions I didn't ask permission for. I mean, I went to my partners and said, I want to do this thing with this shop. And interestingly enough, that has paid off tenfold in that their clients didn't just jump over, but we got one of their sales folks who happens to be phenomenal, who had all these relationships, and that's been really successful.
But the fear piece, I think is worth mentioning, because I had many a night where I was like, “Oh God, what am I doing?” Because at this point, and I've said this before, at this point, I have really worked hard to have a profile in the business community. And I would say in the Midwest that's been successful. And so I always say to them, if this doesn't work, it's not your picture that's going to be in the business journal. It's mine. You'll go and find another job. You're going to go and apply for a job and you'll be fine. I will be screwed forever. And so it's a risk that I'm literally putting my life on the line to make.
Rob:
But it's the old adage. Rome wasn't built in a day, but if I recall correctly, it did burn in one day. There is a downside to the Rome analogy, which is it can all go away really quickly.
One of the things you said I think is absolutely worth highlighting though, is how many different things had to be done to make this possible. And I think that's where a lot of us, and the people that I talk to, I know people that Traci talked to get mixed up, is they're looking for the answer instead of the answers. Because it's a series of decisions that are made one after another with an end goal, a journey you're going on, you don't know what the destination is when you start that.
Nancy:
Yeah. I think there were a lot of decisions that we made over time that were experiments. I think the change thing was a big experiment. Could we actually sell this? Here's the thing. Casey joined, she's Director of Change Strategy. She joined us like five years ago, and we are right now hitting our stride with selling change as a practice. Right now. And that's an argument that I had to make over and over and over again because it was part of a vision that I had that I don't know translated across the organization.
The other thing, of course, is when we acquired that book of business, we acquired a sales enablement practice. And that is something we had experience in, but not necessarily focused experience. And now that is something that is growing for us, but we made these risky decisions and it was. It was we have to change the attitudes. We have to change the seniority level. We have to change our leadership team. We have to not be a SaaS company anymore because I can't keep it profitable. I mean, I think that's something that a lot of our shops realized over time. We have to change our tools. We have to get better at forecasting. We have to get real about some of the policies and practices that we've had in place forever.
I can honestly say I think we were probably first in what everybody calls unlimited vacation space because we've literally never capped it. But we had to get real clear on what that meant so that we could get really clear on our forecasting. We had to pull back on the reins on that four-day workweek thing because while we...Let's do another whole podcast on the four-day workweek can we? Because I have such strong opinions about it.
Because it's always little companies like ours that experiment and try these things. I mean, all of ours, I'm talking to all of us. We try all these things, but we can't move the mountain. The mountain has to participate. And our staff are like, well, you're progressive. They have such huge expectations of us, but our clients are the mountain. And they have a different set of expectations. And as thrilling as it is to be an owner of your own business or be the CEO of something, we never stop working for somebody. You are never working without a boss.
Anyway, I say all of this stuff, and then the growth officer had a real intention of rolling my activities, which we always knew would raise the profile of Clockwork, but now we're getting really strategic about it. So everything that I do in terms of speaking and writing and showing up for things and panels and all that stuff, is now wrapped into a much more comprehensive sales and marketing strategy than we've ever had.
And I will say that the fellow that I mentioned earlier, the salesperson who's phenomenal—whose name I shall never mention, so don't even think about it, competitors. He said to me, "The last company I was at, when I would do a call into a lead, they would have no idea who I was, who the company I worked for was, who the CEO was. Nothing." He said, "That never happens now." He said, "Everybody that I talked to has had some kind of experience with you, or Clockwork, or the brand, or even the building." We have this big yellow building on Hennepin Avenue. He's got a national focus, so it's not just in our backyard. So the work that we've done over 20 years has made sense, but now we're really strategic about it.
So yes, it was a pile of little individual decisions that added up to the company that we are today. And in a weird way, I feel like we're a startup again. I feel like we're right back in startup mode where we are figuring out. And we have a thing that we're working on right now that's the biggest engagement we've ever gotten in our entire existence—and we've had some big ones. And we're going back and forth on the contract right now. And our competitors, we believe are one of those big consulting firms and have been for a while. We've one, worked against them before. But that global footprint is a tough thing to compete with as I'm sure you both know. When they can call somebody in Dublin, or they can call somebody in Berlin and have them on the ground tomorrow, that's a tough thing to compete with. So I feel like those decisions have amounted to some real movement and growth for our organization.
Rob:
I mean, what's the old adage? Nobody gets fired for hiring IBM.
Nancy:
Right. Exactly.
Rob:
That's what we're up against. The safe decision sometimes, or the perceived safe decision.
Rob:
Well, it's that time again where we thank our sponsor, the Bureau of Digital, a community of digital makers that all get together and share and support each other. And today we have a special treat. Carl, the head of the bureau is here with us.
Hey, Carl.
Carl:
Hey, everybody. Thank you for having me be on the show. We don't sponsor any other podcasts, and when I listened to what y'all were doing, I was like, we need to support them. We need to find a way that we can help. So I was like, “Ah,we'll be a sponsor.”
Rob:
And we really do appreciate it. And if you have any questions, check out bureauofdigital.com. The 2023 event schedule is up and live. And a big change for this year is if you join to become a member, all of the online events are included, and there's some really good ones. You don't want to miss out. So don't wait. Visit bureauofdigital.com.
Rob:
Okay. So what's next for you?
Nancy:
Well, I am starting my next book, which is an extension of some of the themes that I've already played with, but maybe a little deeper dive into some really significant ones.
I want to grow the speaking business. I think that attaching, and it's interesting because people always ask me, how do you know about culture? How do you know about these things? Where do you get off speaking about these things? And the truth is, I don't want to talk about culture and leadership for the rest of my life. I actually want to be a motivational speaker, but motivational in the context of work. So I'm thinking about what I want to be when I grow up, and we're thinking about how we fit that into the bigger umbrella of Clockwork. And it all does make sense because the internet is what pushed us to this point. And I have watched the internet, and I may not work for a large company, but we work with them. And I have seen how it affects people's attitudes and energy and interest.
I mean, the pandemic was the way it was. And we're in this weird place where we're asking, what is the future of work right now? Not because of how people sort of innately behave, but because of technology. The reason we're saying what does the future of work look like is because individuals are forcing organizations to think differently and in a more empowering way about how they take advantage of technology. And organizations are in a place where they don't really have a choice. The old white guy CEO, can send the memo that says, everybody's back in the office next Monday, but that doesn't mean that everybody's coming.
And it's weird because we're seeing all these big layoffs in the tech space, and yet there's still a tremendous talent war. And I think that's indicative of the fact that people are really doing what, and this is our full circle moment, friends, what I alluded to not doing in the earlier part of this conversation, which is they're really asking themselves, what do I need to be healthy and whole? What do I need to be seen and empowered and heard?
And I think that if organizations don't catch up and start asking themselves those questions about their teams, we're going to see much bigger failures on the horizon. And that I think is the opportunity that I'm interested in, especially relative to the speaking work that I want to do. Our change group has developed and is developing whole workshops around the things that I talk about. We want to make it a more holistic part of the practice. And it's exciting. It's exciting.
Traci:
I love hearing the passion in your voice. I mean, it's so inspiring, and I think that you are right. The time is right for you. It's right for these messages. It's needed. And I really hope that speaking trail explodes for you.
Nancy:
Well, thank you.
Traci:
Yeah. I feel like the positive impact that you can have on work today is really exciting to me. So yeah. I mean, yeah, motivational speaker, you are. You just motivated me, so wow, I know. That's great. It's fabulous.
Nancy:
Thank you.
Rob:
The time is always right for Nancy, in my opinion.
Nancy:
There's my tagline. I'm working on my new website now, my new branding. I'll be like, the time is always right for Nancy.
Rob:
It's always right. As a longtime fan.
Nancy:
Oh, you know what? That fan thing is mutual. I hope you know that. When you said mentor, I was like, what? Because I can't count the number of times we refer to Rob Harr in meetings, or there's so many opportunities for us to refer to your wisdom. So it's a mutual thing, and I'm grateful for you.
Rob:
Thank you. I appreciate that.
But that does bring us to the end of our time today. Real quick, if somebody wants to hear more or find your book, give us the details on where we can find more Nancy, because I'm always looking for it.
Nancy:
More Nancy.
Well, Clockwork is at clockwork.com. Tempo is design or madebytempo.com, nancylyons.com is where you can find out more about where I'm going to be speaking. You can also sign up for my newsletter, which is a weird little...It's practically analog for God's sake, but it's this thing that has a little life of its own, and so I really enjoy sending out these monthly missives and then worklikeaboss.com is where you can find out more about the book.
Rob:
Thank you. Thanks for your time, Nancy.
Nancy:
Thank you.
Rob:
Traci, as always.
Traci:
Yeah, thank you, Nancy. This was so fun and so much wisdom.
Nancy:
Thank you both. Oh, please. Thank you.
Rob:
All right, y'all.
Announcer:
The Overly Human Podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. If you like what you've heard, subscribe and tell your friends to listen. Thanks.
