Forming A Leadership Team
Should the weight of leadership for an entire company rest in the hands of just the CEO or Owner? How do we create a rhythm where we can work on the business rather than only working in the business? Leadership teams are a great solution for an owner who feels their company has outdistanced their own capabilities alone. Traci and Rob talk about how a leadership team, when formed properly and given the right purpose, can propel a business toward success.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to the Overly Human podcast, where we discuss all things human in the workplace. Because it's not just business—it's personal too.
Traci:
Hey, Rob.
Rob:
Hey, Traci. How are you?
Traci:
Good. I was just thinking, do you remember when you and Ben felt like Sparkbox was a real company?
Rob:
Oh, I can't say I do, but I'll let you know when we get there. That's kind of an interesting question and kind of a funny story. Early on when we were getting started, we had this list of things we needed to do to figure out what it meant to run a company, and on of those things were HR, vacation policies, onboarding and offboarding, all the things that on there, but one of those things was become a real company. It was like this idea that we hadn't figured it out yet.
And to this day, we meet every single week and kind of talk through our hit list that we're working on, and that item remains on our list, become a real company, and we still talk about it. I don't know that we're ever going to check it off. It's almost become like this rallying cry of like, "Hey, we haven't figured it out. There's still humility involved. What's it going to take to actually bridge that gap and become a real company?"
Traci:
Yeah. Was there a moment like a, when you hired X number employee or when you looked around and you were like, "Hey, we need to like really think about our structure. We need to like expand leadership beyond just the two of us." Do you remember that turning point?
Rob:
Yeah, so many times. It's happened quite a few times as we grew from like four to 50 at those different inflection points with different kinds of struggles. A buddy of mine talks about like a really easy way to think about those inflection points kind of match the Fibonacci Sequence, right? When you go from one to two, two to three, three to five, like those numbers become those inflection points where different things start happening.
For us, one of the really struggle points was somewhere around that mid-teens to upper teens, where there was enough to do to work on the company every day, but not necessarily you couldn't afford both of us not to begin the work. That was a really interesting time to figure out what it means to be working on the company and in the company at the same time.
I think that when we talk a little bit about like the leadership teams, which is what we're talking about today, is like a really interesting thing for me is I've worn almost all the different hats we have at Sparkbox. Like I've ran HR, I've done the financial stuff, I've done operations, I've done…I was Technical Director. I think the only job that I've not really done is Creative Director because I am so not qualified for it. That is the one job I'll never, ever, ever have, but how those things evolve over time is a really interesting thing to talk about. I get in several conversations about it with different people is, "How do you know when?"
Traci:
Yeah. And we get that question so often is, "I feel like I need a leadership team. I feel like we've gotten to a certain point, and how big do I need to be? How many people need to be on it? What's the purpose of it?" I think those are really great questions to ask and there is a certain point, and it can be different for different leaders, but usually, yeah, when you start to cross that 20, 25, you know, where you're looking around and you're realizing like, "Okay, this is big." Like we need to think about structure. We need to think about a leadership team. We need to start to really get behind expanding our decision-making process and think about vision and mission, core values, all of that, take another look at all of those things beyond just me and my partner, or even if you don't have a partner, if you kind of started this thing on your own. And we're fans of leadership teams because there's so many, if done right and done well, just like anything, they can be super powerful for a company.
I always say a leadership team can either paralyze a company or can propel a company. If you don't do it right and you don't pick the right people and you don't utilize it in the way you need to, it can be a stopgap. It can be something that's becomes a hurdle for the company, but if you do it well, right size, right people on it, utilizing it in the right way, then it can be something that really propels your company and it helps take the weight off the owner and off the CEO.
Rob:
Yeah. So I think what you're saying, and this is maybe a new idea for us, that it's about the humans involved.
Traci:
Exactly.
Rob:
No. I mean, of course it is. Of course, it's about the people. Like that's, everything is about the people, our projects, our companies, the people that we keep, it's about the humans. But I think that this topic gets so much talk because of how most of us arrive at that point where we start out with a group of owners, and then we slowly add people, and so much of the beginnings of our companies are about the work and doing great work, and all the other stuff, and the communication is so easy. Like you get to skip size...gives you new problems. You get to skip some of the challenges of having to have those things defined because they're so easy to see, right?
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
Your core values early when you're a small team are infectious. People can look at you and tell what they are and what you believe in, and those become rallying cries. And it's not until there's a little bit of scale and a little bit of distance where you really have to define those things so that everyone's on the same page, and it becomes a collective re-centering on those things.
Because what I see more often than not and with our experience was, is did we have a formal leadership team for our first several years? No. Of course not. Was there people we trusted and were leaders without titles? Absolutely. And there were people who opinions we needed and trusted, and I reckon that we recognized pretty early that we needed the collective intelligence to be raised beyond just the few of us to get more inputs. The challenge didn't really come until we were a team of, like I said, mid-20's, where it was like, "Okay. Now, we have to take this next step and actually put titles to this and call it something."
Traci:
Right. I think you had mentioned before this whole concept of working in the business versus working on the business. That's really the main purpose for a leadership team. These are a group of people that are working on the business.
They're rising up above the day-to-day, and they're thinking about the bigger picture. And so the people that you want on that team, it doesn't...Title doesn't necessarily matter, position doesn't matter, even tenure for that fact. You really want strategic-minded people. You want each person bringing something unique to the party, and you really want to think of the makeup.
Now for some companies, it's going to be natural. You could be the CEO, COO, the CTO, the whatever, you're a head of whatever, a department, you can bring those people. Those might actually naturally be the most strategic people and that's sort of how they rose to that position or kind of fell into that role to begin with, and so it can come together very naturally. But I've also seen teams that came together naturally, maybe there's like four or five, and they're missing something. They're missing somebody who has this trait or this quality, or is more people-focused, or is more execution-driven, and they'll go out and just sort of get somebody a natural leader out of the group and add them as well. But you really do want to be thinking about the mind, the ability, the strategic thinking ability of the people that you have on the team.
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, it's so important to have those teams be well-represented and have lots of different opinions because otherwise, we'll be completely limited by our own best.
Traci:
Right.
Rob:
I don't know about the situation you've been on with leadership teams, but, man, I am really scared of teams that are limited by what I'm able to do.
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
Like I need smart people, I want smart people, I want to make better decisions, and I know that having those people available and invested is a huge part of running a successful company.
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
The other part for me is one of my goals was I don't want any single point of success inside the company. I don't want any bottleneck, or limiting factor.
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
Another phrase that's commonly used is single point of failure, which I absolutely hate for all the reasons, because it assumes failure—and that's not who I am as a person. But anytime we have a single point of success, even if that's me or my business partner, I want to eliminate that and have duplication so that we can build a sustainable company.
Traci:
Right.
Rob:
What that means is we need multiple people able to do all the different things, and to slowly root out the things that only one person is capable of doing, even if that's self.
Traci:
Right. What you're talking about is the total mindset of the owner of the company, right? If you are a much more narcissistic type of a leader or a person that really wants to hold the reins tight, or wants to have control over everything, you're going to push back against the leadership team concept. You just are. Because sometimes people feel threatened, or they feel like they're losing control of the company when they start to share ownership or start to become more transparent, or start to invite people into the decision-making process, and there, it could be your fear, it could be your sense of control, it could be your own inner narcissism. Like all these factors can keep an owner or a CEO from wanting to do a leadership team.
So I think it's a good like self-check, like if you're listening to this right now and you're like, "Ooh, I don't like that concept," to really ask yourself these questions like, "Am I being the right kind of leader? Am I entering into this with the right mindset?" I think everything you just said is a good like litmus test, like I don't want to be the person that holds things. I don't want to be, that our success is just completely dependent on just my opinion. So you have to kind of get in the right mindset and be ready to enter into this process, kind of with open hand and a open heart when you're starting to form these leadership teams.
Rob:
Yeah. Now, what...I mean, I have a question for you, is we've had our leadership team for several years now, and we've continued to grow and roles are becoming more defined and all of that. One of the things that I view my job as on that leadership team, as one of the leaders of the leadership team, which is an interesting way to put it, I guess, is I spend a considerable amount of time building consensus, and working with those individuals, and helping problem solve, and like point this very smart, capable people on that leadership team towards the right problems, but helping them work through differences and like all of that. Is that a healthy way to look at my role and what we're doing, or what else? What am I missing?
Traci:
Well, no. I think you're on the right track. There's a book that I often recommend to people. It's called Senior Leadership Teams. I don't know if you've ever read that book.
It's a bit academic, so you got to kind of, but I do like some of their key points, and one thing that they say kind of over and over again is they have like three criteria for leadership. Like you want to make sure you have the right size, so they're very big fans of the smaller, the better, so like no more than eight people.
They want meaningful tasks, so kind of like what you're talking about. This is not...This needs to be a group that is working on important decisions, forward-thinking towards the mission, the vision of the company, they're having like really deep conversations, they're challenging each other, and the owner, CEO. These are the people guiding that, but they're participating. So you should feel, yes, somebody needs to be running that meeting, making sure it's efficient and effective, bringing the right issues and topics, but you also want to be an equal participant. You don't want all of a sudden, the leadership team is deferring to you, or they're like, "Okay. Well, let's let Rob speak first, and then we know how this discussion is going to go."
The third thing is clear norms, meaning kind of clear norms of conduct, so who are we as a team? I often point people to like Patrick Lencioni's model. Like this has got to be a group of people that have a foundation of trust so that they can have healthy conflict, they don't feel scared in front of you and Ben, they feel equal, they feel like they know issues off the table, that they feel safe, they can make decisions together, even if there's not a unanimous agreement, they can all buy in and say, "Okay. This is the way we're going to go, and we've agreed to commit to this decision so we're all going to sing off the same song sheet when we go out to the greater, wider agency, and then make sure that we are unified in our approach." Then, the top of the rung is holding each other accountable so that we have collective results, like we're focused on those results.
That's the type of team you want. You want this kind of healthy, cohesive leadership team, full of trust, full of healthy conflict. Like your meetings should actually be fun and eventful. If they're boring, monotonous, meaningless, then you know you're off track. Like if you're having some good debate, you're really solving some serious problems. You feel like you're moving that ball down the field, then you are probably doing the whole leadership team thing right.
Rob:
Yeah. I mean, a couple of thoughts like I love what you hit on with the unity. Like that is something that's such a big deal to me, is like during this safe place, we can have whatever conversation we want, and we can disagree. At the end of this day, when we walk out, we have unity. We have to have each other's backs no matter what.
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
That is more important than anything else, to building trust, to having safe places, and to making sure that the rest of your company feels like there is a unified message and direction coming from leadership, because they see it as a single entity, and they want to know that there's not dissent, and dissent can happen in the room, but we walk out, we got to be unified. So, so important in my book.
Traci:
Yeah. How you get there, like the easiest trick to that is that you all have the servant mentality to the greater good. Like you are putting above your own individual desires and wants, the mission of the company, the people, the greater good. If everybody on the leadership team has that mentality, then we don't take things personally. Like we can have that healthy conflict because we know this is the goal, this is the greater good, this is what we're going for, and then that helps us feel safe, and that helps us feel like we can be unified, and we can go forward as a unit.
Rob:
Yeah. The second thing that you kind of touched on a little bit is how those discussions should go. One of the things that has had a big impact on me is this whole idea of spiraling through issues, and that sometimes we have conversations as a team not to get to the answer, or the end, but to just explore the problem space. And giving people permission with complicated issues to talk about them for a timebox period of time. Say, "Hey, this is what we're going to talk about? 30 minutes. 30 minutes, we're going to move on." And we may not get to the end, and we'll come back to it next time. And that's okay because we'll all take bits and pieces away from this conversation and perspective to chew on so when we come back next time. We'll make further progress and the whole idea of like how a marble goes down a funnel, makes spins, and spins, and spins. Like if you just track one revolution to the next, you won't see progress, but if you look at it over time, it slowly gets closer and closer to the end decision.
Traci:
Right. That's a very Eastern way of looking at problems, right? Our kind of American way is like, we need to get from A to B as quickly as possible, like solution-driven, results-driven, and we don't have enough patience, and that's what you're talking about, patience in the problem. We should spend the majority of our time figuring out what the actual root of the problem is. What really is the issue we're talking about? If you do a good job with that problem solving part of it, the getting to the solution is going to go a lot faster, so it's really the what, the why, the root of the problem, what we're really talking about in what you're saying, that kind of spiral discussion.
Rob:
Yeah. I also think that that kind of approach where you're spiraling allows all the different personality types to have their voice heard. Because there are so many people that I've worked with that don't process quickly. They don't process verbally. They have to chew on things, and I think that I'm a verbal processor. I like to kind of think out loud, and I always have an opinion, always something to share. But there are other people I know in our team that like to sit with things, and while they may not speak up the first time something comes up, you better believe they have thoughts and they'll say something the next time when they've had time to sit with it and chew on it. I think that if we don't want our teams and decisions to be dictated by one personality type or one type of thinker, then we need to make sure that we have a process that can allow everyone to participate over time.
Traci:
Yeah. I mean, that's so important. We talked about this in our Assessment episode, is that oftentimes what we do is we do a group assessment. And then the leadership team is able to look at the report and see, "Okay, as a group, here's how we fall out personality wise, so we need to remember that John needs more time to think, or Bob needs more time to process, and maybe come back the next day." And then we also look at emotional intelligence, and as a group, we're able to see as a group where our blind spots. "Where did get tripped up? Do we get stuck in our head? Do we get too emotional?"
It's great to look at ourselves individually, but it's really cool to look at ourselves as a group, and then we're aware, like, "Oh, we're doing it again. Like we're going too quickly to the solution. We're not being patient." So if we know our blind spots as a group, we can kind of hold each other accountable and understand where and how we get stuck, so we can get around that and keep going forward.
Rob:
Yeah. It's so interesting to think about like a team's personality traits being made up of those people, but teams definitely take a shape and have a direction and have those norms, and have a personality almost to how they develop and solve problems and work together. But that also means if they have that, they also can develop bad habits and get into funks and not healthy ways of conflict and problem solving, so it's always that balance of, "Are we small and agile and able to make progress, and are we not falling in those bad habits and like just thinking that progress is things being done?"
Traci:
Yeah.
Rob:
I think that that's a big problem for so much, so many of us, and I'm guilty of it too. Like I think of progress as checkboxes being completed, instead of thoughtful decisions that actually get us closer to our mission and vision.
Traci:
Yeah. And if you understand, if you have a team where each person brings something unique and different to the table, and you guys all understand that, you can do what you're talking about, where you're, like if many members of the team are very results-driven and very check-the-box driven, but you know you've got a couple of people that take longer to process or they're more people-focused, or they're quieter and they're not speaking as much as some of the other people, then you know like, "Hey, before we move on, I want to hear from Sally and Jim, because we know what your personality...We know that you're processing here. Nobody's going to say anything, but I want to hear from each of you." And so when we know each other better and we understand each other better, then we can make sure we're getting the best out of everybody.
Rob:
Yeah. That's really the goal, is the collective intelligence and collective ability to make better, more informed, diverse decisions as we move forward, that we're not limited by our own blind spots.
Traci:
Yeah. Then, I think the last thing is, when it comes to leadership teams, is making sure there is not this big divide between the leadership team and the rest of the company. That the leadership team understands how, and we talked a little bit about this, like singing from the same song sheet, making sure we're communicating what our goals are, what we're doing, what we're discussing in these meetings, and really making sure we're going out and we're talking to everybody in the company so that they feel like they have a voice. That this isn't some secret, like, “We're not in the room where it happens,” and that people feel separated, and they're kind of wondering, "What are they talking about? Are they deciding my fate?" that there's some transparency there, and we're really sharing what we're doing, what we're talking about, and, "If people have things they want to add, please come and see one of us," and that sort of mentality that you guys, again, back to that servant mentality, like we're here kind of like trying to get the mission and the vision to be realized, so we want you guys to feel like you have a voice and we hear you, and so there's this kind of fluid relationship between the leadership team and the rest of the company. I think that's really important.
Rob:
Yeah. I completely agree. That's pretty cool. Well, any closing thoughts, Traci?
Traci:
I think I'll close with the, kind of what I said in the beginning, like a leadership team can, if done well and really the owners and leaders of the company really have the right mindset, you go in and you really form it well and you understand what your purpose is, it can really propel your company. It can be such an amazing asset to success.
Rob:
Yeah. All right. Thanks.
Traci:
Thank you.
Announcer:
This podcast would not be possible without the amazing communications team at Sparkbox. If you'd like what you've heard, please subscribe and tell your friends to listen to as well. The Overly Human podcast is brought to you by Navigate the Journey and Sparkbox. For more information on this podcast, or to get in touch with Traci or Rob, go to overlyhuman.com. Thanks for listening.
